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2020-05-19 08:50:11
uziq
Member
+498|3721

SuperJail Warden wrote:

Larssen wrote:

Macbeth wrote:

the state still recognizes smaller ethnic groups as equal to Han in law.
I know, but that is not practice.
In practice how are racial minorities of the west doing? Probably worse in practice than a lot of the smaller ethnic groups of China. China also gives autonomous regions to some small groups.

There are there few complaints regarding how China treats its minorities that aren't analogous to the west now or in recent history.
and the west focusses on them a disproportionate amount because they reflect western fascinations (and anxieties), western ideology in short.

the chinese do not even conceive of their nationhood and identity in the same way as we do. the individual is not paramount, so neither are individual rights. the struggles for specific identity groups for recognition are not greeted in the same way.

this is what i have been saying all along. to imagine that these issues are critical to the survival of china is to ascribe them a western-level of concern and importance. it is liberal universalism. the chinese have their own ideology and see mutual trade-offs for collective stability/security as being far more important.
2020-05-19 09:05:52
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+644|3988
The west's criticism of China's political system is usually either ignorant of how it works in practice or lacking in self reflection. The last 30 years, literally almost the entirely of our lives, our civilization has been flailing while theirs has been expanding and building. China's success has raised some genuine questions regarding some of the basic premises of how our political-economic system works.

I feel like China's one party system is probably for the best at least for them. I don't see how the introduction of party politics or identity politics would make China a stronger nation.
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
2020-05-19 09:19:54
uziq
Member
+498|3721
the chinese economy has ballooned and even average middle-class citizens have seen their quality-of-life and material wealth rocket. a huge generational shift has occurred in which rural-agrarian poor are now consumerist middle-class citizens. the fact the government keeps tabs on everything they message one another hardly raises a quibble.

for larssen to make out that vast swathes of the population are unhappy and left out is pretty dishonest stuff. 'those high-scoring surveys must be fake!' he is talking about minorities which make up 6-7% of the population. so we are to believe that large surveys reporting high levels of confidence in the government are wrong, and the tibetans and uiyghurs are the norm, instead? i almost sympathise with liberals that need to stretch credulity to these lengths to feel safe and vindicated in this world.

these people see the 70th anniversary celebrations of the chinese state and convince themselves that the mass sentiment is orchestrated, or forced at gunpoint. it's not even clear that's the case in basket-case nations like north korea, let alone china. they need so badly to believe this narrative.

Last edited by uziq (2020-05-19 09:33:16)

2020-05-19 12:10:15
Larssen
Member
+99|2156

uziq wrote:

episteme is not universally ascribed to foucault. heidegger used the concepts of episteme/techne very widely in his own work, and he is a far more important philosopher. nobody with even a salutary grasp of the subject would claim foucault 'owns' episteme. i have never ever read the term 'episteme' used to mean 'lived reality', not in foucault or anywhere else. that's because it doesn't mean that; your usage is idiosyncratic, at best. even in his own text he was discussing how people mentally conceived of their world or cosmos, and the concepts and categories they used to structure that knowledge. not their 'lived reality', which is something else entirely and hardly concerns epistemology.

please just stop. i cannot be bothered to give you a crash course on modern thinking.

kuhn reintroduced the term 'paradigm' to discuss (changing) scientific methods, and 'paradigm shift' has been misused ever since. again, it's from plato (the timaeus). i could probably cite it in detail for you if you want. that's because i've read it, several times. it means something more like a model to be repeated, which makes sense in the narrow sense of the scientific method. it does not mean 'worldview' in the sense you make of it. 'paradigm' is not interchangeable with zeitgeist/weltgeist.  again, please stop.
Episteme is most certainly strongly associated with Foucault in the sense that you or I referred to it - literally any book on epistemiology will reference him first. You're honestly being extremely pedantic here. It's you who steered the conversation this way, I never even made a fucking point out of it. The only time I even mentioned the word episteme - in a completely different conversation - I correctly used the term. So what do you mean my understanding is insufficient? You're grasping at straws here. You want me to give you the complete Foucauldian definition + citations any time I'm using it? Nah I don't feel your subjective interpretation of whatever I'm writing warrants that level of detail and attention, that's a giant overestimation of your own self-importance you're displaying. I'm being as simple and clear as possible, if that's not to your liking maybe you don't understand it that well yourself.

Oh here we go, the defence Kuhn himself made that the term 'paradigm shift' has been misused ever since he publicised his book. Of course you would go there. Yes uzique I'm aware, I have literally no interest in engaging you on these topics at all. I feel the only point to it is that you want to stroke your own ego.


uziq wrote:

china keeps an immense amount of data and metrics on how their population are feeling. that was my entire point, 10 posts ago. they are the most technocratic state on earth. they monitor everything. 'don't care about how their population feels'? i feel like your view of china is about 40 years out of date, and badly scarred by Tienanmen. it's not 1984. it's possibly more nightmarish, even, i'll grant you that, but  'lived reality' there isn't the majority of people living in a greyscale dystopia with a tiny Han elite enjoying all the privileges. most chinese people self-identify as Han and as such consider the nation's success their own. you do not seem to understand this: they take immense pride in their country. the vast majority of them, tibetans and uiyghur muslims excluded, sure.
Yes and the point is not how happy the average chinese person is but the measure of control the government has and can exert. Are you going to argue the CCP is a form of benevolent leadership now? Who's the sinophile here again?

uziq wrote:

and this describes so much of the west, as well. weren't you just denigrating 'identity' politics two posts ago? make some sense, please.
If you're going to make a comparison in the treatment of ethnic minorities in the west vs China you're out of your fucking mind. First off, good luck in finding a uniform treatment of minority groups across all countries that comprise the west, second, what the fuck?


Also I feel we're doing some hilarious reversal here as I remember quite a long time ago I defended the existence of the Chinese state vis-a-vis the HK protests and it was you and KJ who railed against me for not condemning their actions and participate in flag-waving for minority rights. How the tables have turned!

Last edited by Larssen (2020-05-19 12:16:51)

2020-05-19 12:15:40
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+644|3988

Larssen wrote:

If you're going to make a comparison in the treatment of ethnic minorities in the west vs China you're out of your fucking mind. First off, good luck in finding a uniform treatment of minority groups across all countries that comprise the west, second, what the fuck?
Again, I am going to point out that the vast sum of Chinese minority groups are doing just fine or even better than a lot of minority groups in some prominent western countries. Not every Chinese minority group gets labor camped. And not every western minority group gets a place in a Coke ad either.
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
2020-05-19 12:17:57
Larssen
Member
+99|2156
According to whom? You? The CCP? The incidental minority person who fits in with Chinese society rather well?

I'm sure we can find an equal if not greater amount of minority people in the west who are thriving far beyond any person in the Chinese state. Our best is better and so is our worst. Theirs is, well, I'd like to reference tibet, hk, xinjiang and inner mongolia again.

Last edited by Larssen (2020-05-19 12:20:21)

2020-05-19 12:25:51
uziq
Member
+498|3721
(a) foucault is not the top scholar on episteme. it's a term from plato and aristotle. foucault adapted it to his own, slightly specialised use. nobody would first associate foucault with episteme. the entire groundwork of the term, its theorisation and elaboration, come from ancient philosophy. it was a mainstay of aristotle and later scholasticism. foucault was receiving the term at the end of a very long and annotated chain of transmission.

what foucault was actually doing, echt-nietzschean that he was, was taking a term well-known to philosophers and philologists and exapting it slightly. nietzsche did this with ancient greek, and heidegger after him. in each case the usage is ... 'creative' shall we say (they would call it hermeneutics) and a 'creative' re-reading of the ancient originals. but, again, not even foucault in his marginal use used episteme to mean 'lived reality'. because it's not what it means.

i am not being pedantic. you started lecturing me on the 'correct use of words' and you seemingly haven't a clue where they come from, what they transliterate as from their language, or their intellectual historical context. funny. if i wanted to be pedantic i'd link a 'let me google that for you' on 'foucault+lived reality' and you'd see ... zero citations. bong!


(b) i never said the chinese state were great. what the fuck can you not understand about this point? I DO NOT LIKE THE CCP. it is only your incorrigible idiocy that means i have to adopt this position, time and time again. of course they are a controlling government! but my point is that this fact can coexist perfectly well with HIGH APPROVAL from their citizens. you literally cannot understand the concept that a country, somewhere else in the world with different traditions and culture, might not judge its government's worthiness or performance according to liberal standards of 'openness', 'freedom', 'liberality', etc. the chinese don't fucking care! it's not a matter of 'benevolent leadership' or not, it's totally irrelevant and not even clear whose standards of benevolence you're referring to anyway. you know what they consider benevolence? dragging hundreds of millions of people out of poverty and finding them stable jobs and disposable income.

no, the tables haven’t turned vis-à-vis hong kong. i am not expressing anywhere my support for china’s actions. am i going fucking mad here or something? we are discussing their high approval rating for their own government. i am trying to tell you that the chinese support is not a phantasm. they really are that patriotic. i am not a fucking card-carrying CCP member. oh my god this isn’t complicated.

when i try to explain to you that you’ve got the views of the average chinese wrong, you condescend and mock at me for ‘having chinese girlfriends’. then two posts later you regurgitate some seminar room platitude about ‘welcome edifying conversation with an actual chinese in the spirit of rorty’ (lmao). wow you are one confused person.

Last edited by uziq (2020-05-19 12:36:50)

2020-05-19 12:28:36
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+644|3988

Larssen wrote:

According to whom? You? The CCP? The incidental minority person who fits in with Chinese society rather well?

I'm sure we can find an equal if not greater amount of minority people in the west who are thriving far beyond any person in the Chinese state.
I think you underestimate how alienated many western minorities are from their governments and mainstream cultures of their societies. These same governments often invoke or campaign on identity issues furthering alienating and dividing their populations. Complain about the Chinese system all you want but you will not have situations there where you have candidates winning on platforms of expelling minorities or using dog whistle politics. I am not saying it is a perfect system over in China but just reiterating that the western world is handling its minority issues pretty poorly too. In some ways better and in some ways worse. But definitely not better enough to hold it above China's head.
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
2020-05-19 12:30:06
uziq
Member
+498|3721
he is a liberal EU shill who glosses over any regional fractiousness within his own 'benevolent' body as so many growing pains, and yet thinks tibet is a grand existential threat to a nation of 1.4 billion.
2020-05-19 12:35:08
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+644|3988

uziq wrote:

he is a liberal EU shill who glosses over any regional fractiousness within his own 'benevolent' body as so many growing pains, and yet thinks tibet is a grand existential threat to a nation of 1.4 billion.
Meanwhile, tens of thousands of Muslim EU citizens went off to join ISIS. The Netherlands and Belgium actually had the highest percentage and I think also total number of foreign ISIS fighters. I am sure they probably all felt welcome and free in the EU before heading off.
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
2020-05-19 12:38:59
uziq
Member
+498|3721
the term is bien-pensant. everything in europe can be fixed with a little bit of policy. there there, loud mouthed brits. ssssh and be patient, catalans. oh the turks of the netherlands, yes, well, it’s a shame about their living conditions, but what can you do ... let’s conduct some sociological studies and wait and see. what can you do about the complaints about refugees? people are slow to arrive at the enlightened view. we must be understanding of their bigotry and continue on regardless. we know the best way, we are so reasonable, we are so pragmatic.

etc etc etc
2020-05-19 12:44:17
Larssen
Member
+99|2156

uziq wrote:

(a) foucault is not the top scholar on episteme. it's a term from plato and aristotle. foucault adapted it to his own, slightly specialised use. nobody would first associate foucault with episteme. the entire groundwork of the term, its theorisation and elaboration, come from ancient philosophy. it was a mainstay of aristotle and later scholasticism. foucault was receiving the term at the end of a very long and annotated chain of transmission.

what foucault was actually doing, echt-nietzschean that he was, was taking a term well-known to philosophers and philologists and exapting it slightly. nietzsche did this with ancient greek, and heidegger after him. in each case the usage is ... 'creative' shall we say (they would call it hermeneutics) and a 'creative' re-reading of the ancient originals. but, again, not even foucault in his marginal use used episteme to mean 'lived reality'. because it's not what it means.

i am not being pedantic. you started lecturing me on the 'correct use of words' and you seemingly haven't a clue where they come from, what they transliterate as from their language, or their intellectual historical context. funny. if i wanted to be pedantic i'd link a 'let me google that for you' on 'foucault+lived reality' and you'd see ... zero citations. bong!


(b) i never said the chinese state were great. what the fuck can you not understand about this point? I DO NOT LIKE THE CCP. it is only your incorrigible idiocy that means i have to adopt this position, time and time again. of course they are a controlling government! but my point is that this fact can coexist perfectly well with HIGH APPROVAL from their citizens. you literally cannot understand the concept that a country, somewhere else in the world with different traditions and culture, might not judge its government's worthiness or performance according to liberal standards of 'openness', 'freedom', 'liberality', etc. the chinese don't fucking care! it's not a matter of 'benevolent leadership' or not, it's totally irrelevant and not even clear whose standards of benevolence you're referring to anyway. you know what they consider benevolence? dragging hundreds of millions of people out of poverty and finding them stable jobs and disposable income.

no, the tables haven’t turned vis-à-vis hong kong. i am not expressing anywhere my support for china’s actions. am i going fucking mad here or something? we are discussing their high approval rating for their own government. i am trying to tell you that the chinese support is not a phantasm. they really are that patriotic. i am not a fucking card-carrying CCP member. oh my god this isn’t complicated
I only said 'lived reality', placing it between apostrophes, to simplify (drastically) - and I believe quite obviously to disclaim by my use of apostrophes that it's not quite what is meant by that term.

I'm still waiting on your explanation for how my use of the word in the following post is in any way wrong:

https://forums.bf2s.com/viewtopic.php?p … 0#p3969000

It isn't. You know it isn't. You know pretty fucking well what I'm referring to. You wilfully disregard that to fly off on a tangent. Newsflash: a proper history education involves a pretty deep dive into historiography and kuhn and foucault are required reading. I don't need your 4 paragraph explanation of what it's supposed to be, thank you, I've had entire 'dumbshit seminars' and courses dedicated to these philosophers among others - many years ago - enough to know that I understand the works and their application, because I needed to. Which, in any serious setting, I would refresh my understanding of if it were necessary. I even have the books in my room as we write. Your masturbation session on these topics here is exasperating and tiring.

Well then certainly you have no problem with me stating that 'the Chinese are super happy with the CCP' does not include tibetans, uighurs, hongkongers, many people of inner mongolia, or that the Chinese state is one that rules by fear and repression and that non-happiness is crushed whenever it is expressed. I have agreed that they have popular support, in large part due to the economic success of the nation, never denied it, and I won't. But I believe those facts are quite important to acknowledge if we're talking the contentedness of the people who live under CCP rule.

Last edited by Larssen (2020-05-19 12:45:04)

2020-05-19 12:49:34
uziq
Member
+498|3721
sure, 3% of the population are oppressed and the rest don’t give a damn. meanwhile no discord or disharmony exists anywhere in the west. no we should focus on tibet.

your use of episteme clearly needs an update if you berate me for using it in a non-historical context. it doesn’t have to be historical. there is a chinese episteme and a liberal european episteme. your extremely reduced, not to say traduced, understanding of the term leads me to believe you haven’t done the reading. well done for having books in your room though! that’s good for you.

as i said, ‘lived reality’ involves techne and doxa as well as episteme. the vast majority of everyday quotidian reality does not involve episteme. you’d know this if you had read the source material.

i’m going to have to fail you this term. luckily plato’s timaeus is short.

Last edited by uziq (2020-05-19 12:51:24)

2020-05-19 12:53:55
Larssen
Member
+99|2156

uziq wrote:

the term is bien-pensant. everything in europe can be fixed with a little bit of policy. there there, loud mouthed brits. ssssh and be patient, catalans. oh the turks of the netherlands, yes, well, it’s a shame about their living conditions, but what can you do ... let’s conduct some sociological studies and wait and see. what can you do about the complaints about refugees? people are slow to arrive at the enlightened view. we must be understanding of their bigotry and continue on regardless. we know the best way, we are so reasonable, we are so pragmatic.

etc etc etc
I understand and empathise with your bitterness over the leave vote. If you want to go you're free to do so - let's acknowledge that the democratic secession of a territory/nation/governed entity from a shared form of governance is almost unheard of in history.
2020-05-19 12:58:14
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+644|3988
Brexit should have went like Yugoslavia. It would have been better to watch on American T.V.
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
2020-05-19 12:58:28
uziq
Member
+498|3721
applauding yourself for a democratic secession that your EU in part created. that’s a strange form of self-congratulation. whatever makes you happy. ‘aren’t we doing a great job of saying goodbye to this nation we refused to negotiate with?’
2020-05-19 13:01:43
Larssen
Member
+99|2156

uziq wrote:

sure, 3% of the population are oppressed and the rest don’t give a damn. meanwhile no discord or disharmony exists anywhere in the west. no we should focus on tibet.

your use of episteme clearly needs an update if you berate me for using it in a non-historical context. it doesn’t have to be historical. there is a chinese episteme and a liberal european episteme. your extremely reduced, not to say traduced, understanding of the term leads me to believe you haven’t done the reading. well done for having books in your room though! that’s good for you.

as i said, ‘lived reality’ involves techne and doxa as well as episteme. the vast majority of everyday quotidian reality does not involve episteme. you’d know this if you had read the source material.

i’m going to have to fail you this term. luckily plato’s timaeus is short.
Am I saying the west should focus on Tibet? No, again, I'm rightfully pointing out that the happiness of people under CCP rule may vary quite extremely depending on your ethnic and geographic background. I see you lilke to gloss over this again and again.

In the context of my degree I understood the source material perfectly well, thanks.
2020-05-19 13:02:34
Larssen
Member
+99|2156

uziq wrote:

applauding yourself for a democratic secession that your EU in part created. that’s a strange form of self-congratulation. whatever makes you happy. ‘aren’t we doing a great job of saying goodbye to this nation we refused to negotiate with?’
No actually I think the UK establishment had much more to do with Brexit than the EU itself.
2020-05-19 13:11:45
uziq
Member
+498|3721
the original fait accompli presented to cameron by the EU was an electoral albatross around his neck, and they knew it and played to their advantage. they put him in an impossible position. if the EU had cooperated more earlier on, there never would have been a referendum. that is fairly hard to argue with.

of course, once the crack was opened, all the regular assortment of euroskeptic crazies worked it like the thin end of a wedge. it was game over from that point. the sad thing is cameron didn’t know it, and definitely the EU didn’t either. otherwise they wouldn’t have played the tactic they did at the outset. it backfired massively.

funny how for such a benevolent, omniscient organization, the EU has a way of getting involved with national and domestic politics, isn’t it? of course you can feign divine indifference. the rest of the outcome was surely down to providence.

In the context of my degree I understood the source material perfectly well, thanks
ok. so maybe hold fire next time before you start lecturing someone like a patrician about concepts and words you have a very limited grasp of. it makes you look very silly.

Last edited by uziq (2020-05-19 13:13:08)

2020-05-19 13:20:28
Larssen
Member
+99|2156
It was the constant UK insistence on special rules, exemptions, workarounds to satisfy its self interest coupled with a decades-long tradition of refusing to take ownership of ANY decision they co-signed in Brussels while playing up anti-EU sentiment at home that ultimately manifested in the results of the Brexit vote. I will readily acknowledge that the Brussels elite is detached, lives in a bubble and can at many times be much more well-organised and smart in their public outreach, but that reality is a construct of the member states first and foremost. The EU wasn't involved in anything without the UK government consent, and that is final.

It also strikes me that as soon as you run out of things to attack on you just kinda stop replying. I assume your abandonment of my EU thread is a form of silent concession that you have no argument left, no leg to stand on. The UK leaving the EU was a terrible decision, which has been abundantly clear every day for the last 3 years. You still haven't left. That 350 million a week to the NHS is going straight to the salaries of all the diplomats you have to employ to negotiate every detail of your withdrawal. You can add a few billion in the minus to replace all the EU subsidies you lose out on and the damage to your economy. Your country is ignorant.

Last edited by Larssen (2020-05-19 13:24:30)

2020-05-19 13:23:11
uziq
Member
+498|3721
lots of countries in the EU has agreed special and preferential treatment. it’s not unprecedented. the fact is that, like your policy on referenda and binding results, they are ‘rules’ until they’re not. the EU makes exemptions and re-runs referenda all the time. it has a history of doing so.

i’m sorry but you have to take your share of responsibility. this enlightened, self-satisfied bureaucratese is precisely why people despise you. noli me tangere!
2020-05-19 13:30:07
Larssen
Member
+99|2156
I will gloat only as a self-satisfied smug bureaucrat could, as your island sinks into the atlantic into historical non-importance - no great end to the british chapters in history, just a petering out into a pathetic state where it allowed itself to become ruled by the dumbest of dumb, the neanderthals of society, the worst underbelly of what it could muster. Truly there's no greater irony than someone of the highly educated UK elite calling a continental European out for being absorbed in 'enlightened self-satisfaction'. Look around you, uzi, contrasted with your countrymen you're a walking, talking example of so much that is wrong in the UK.
2020-05-19 13:30:28
uziq
Member
+498|3721
i didn’t reply in the europe thread because all the discussions are going on in all the threads concurrently. i said what i had to say in response to your plea for a EU world police. i said none of that was very satisfying to the people who feel brexit as an emotional issue. you have to speak to those people, not bang about about IR and building up the congo so that we can get preferential rubber prices for our michelin tyres or whatever.
2020-05-19 13:32:43
uziq
Member
+498|3721

Larssen wrote:

I will gloat only as a self-satisfied smug bureaucrat could, as your island sinks into the atlantic into historical non-importance - no great end to the british chapters in history, just a petering out into a pathetic state where it allowed itself to become ruled by the dumbest of dumb, the neanderthals of society, the worst underbelly of what it could muster. Truly there's no greater irony than someone of the highly educated UK elite calling a continental European out for being absorbed in 'enlightened self-satisfaction'. Look around you, uzi, contrasted with your countrymen you're a walking, talking example of so much that is wrong in the UK.
ok boomer. we had a good run. a lot better than the fucking netherlands or whatever. you’re 50 years ahead of us on being a racist, inward looking nowhere state. at least the UK won’t have to rely in large part on weed and sex tourism, like some cold and shitty version of thailand.

wah wah wah my country is more glorious than yours
2020-05-19 13:35:40
Larssen
Member
+99|2156
In how many ways do I have to say that I'm german by birth

Also it was my rationalisation of my own pro-EUness, not an appeal to the masses. I won't start talking about EUTM RCA to average joe.

 

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