Transgender people are now allowed into the military

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Transgender people are now allowed into the military

2022-04-11 01:48:07

#1326

uziq: Member; +497|3712

the people who set-up the leave campaign explicitly said that no deal was not the aim, would be a disaster, we could do better, etc.

'safe to say though the people who headed the campaign equated it to a clean break'.

https://www.itv.com/news/2019-09-02/we- … from-space

'We didn't vote to leave without a deal': Mr Gove, who holds the position of Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster in Boris Johnson's Cabinet, made the promise in an article written for the Daily Mail in March as he urged Tory MPs to back Theresa May's Brexit deal.

don't you work in brussels? dilbert twisting the truth of events is one thing.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 … eal-brexit

the simple fact is that almost everyone behind the vote leave campaign envisioned we could wrangle some sort of preferential free trade deal and also win bigly. politically inane, sure, but that's the campaign they packaged and sold to the people and almost all of them thought they could carry it off.

we ended up with no-deal brexit due to 2-3 years of collapse and calamity. 3 prime ministers later and almost 2 entire cabinet renews and you're telling me 'this is clearly what the british elite wanted all along'? lol not very fucking smart.

turns out the person living in the UK throughout this entire debacle does have the best sense of how it played out.

Last edited by uziq (2022-04-11 01:48:24)

2022-04-11 02:14:25

#1327

Dilbert_X: The X stands for; +1,815|6366|eXtreme to the maX

Gove etc were useful idiots, a deal could have been achieved but every effort was made to avoid it.

My predictions were right, yours, even though you lived there, were wrong.

Fuck Israel

2022-04-11 02:18:23

#1328

uziq: Member; +497|3712

useful idiots? they were the leaders of the campaign.

yet you tell me 'people could tell all along that no-deal was the obvious path'. erm, the actual fucking architects of the leave campaign were outspoken, on the record, many times, about wanting a deal? the 'no-deal might be alright after all, let's take it to them!' path was an option of last resort. boris and gove switched to that messaging YEARS into the process when they realized it would be politically expedient for them to do so (because two prime ministers and several senior cabinet ministers had already resigned in the process of wrangling a deal, FFS).

for you to say 'it was obvious to everyone that no-deal was the aim' is historical abuse. stop.

it's so fucking funny that you were just talking about how you're such an expert at spotting propaganda, seeing through the spin, PR and evasions, etc, and yet with the most basic modicum of journalistic effort, it's easy to reconstruct the last few years and find ample evidence to contradict your claims. 'no deal' was never the aim from the outset from these people – boris famously said, on the record, that brexit would be bad for business and should be avoided until he saw his own gilded opportunity – and there's oodles of soundbites, quotations, speeches and presentations to document it. the guardian article puts together a précis you can absorb in 5 minutes. but hey, you're a fucking 'expert' sleuth with the media, aren't you!

Last edited by uziq (2022-04-11 02:22:12)

2022-04-11 02:24:14

#1329

Dilbert_X: The X stands for; +1,815|6366|eXtreme to the maX

I think you'll find Mr Farage led the campaign.

It was the tory euro-sceptic group which scuppered every deal and brought down each PM no? When Johnson started mumbling about no-deal he was allowed to stay in and let the clock run out.

Fuck Israel

2022-04-11 02:27:23

#1330

Larssen: Member; +99|2147

I have no recollection of deal/no deal discussions being part of the actual campaign in 2016. That only became an issue once the govt had to put 'leaving' in action, if I remember right. Which made people aware of the fact that the EU is a patchwork of agreements, so 'leaving' could mean a lot of different things.

Granted, no deal was the most extreme option. Yes, they all believed in a fairytale that the UK would be granted a FTA while rejecting freedom of movement, the authority of the ECJ and having an automatic opt out from any future EU legislation/directives.

I think Gove is a bit disingenuous, as usual, in saying there was an understanding in the campaign that there would be 'a deal'. Clearly none of them spoke to eachother much about this, and all of them had varying ideas of what it would mean, or when it would happen. Hence the resulting clusterfuck after the results were in.

2022-04-11 02:28:36

#1331

uziq: Member; +497|3712

Dilbert_X wrote:
I think you'll find Mr Farage led the campaign.

It was the tory euro-sceptic group which scuppered every deal and brought down each PM no? When Johnson started mumbling about no-deal he was allowed to stay in and let the clock run out.

mr farage has never held an elected office in the united kingdom. why would anyone look to him for guidance on policy and deal negotiations? are you fucking dumb?

how is it 'obvious to everyone from the start' which way a political process would go ... by listening to an unelected loudmouth?

mr farage was officially excluded from much of the vote leave campaigning, by the way. he was considered toxic to many tories. that was sort of the whole point of the conservative parties' realignment around UKIP's talking points.

amazing that you get so many fundamentals wrong about the history of brexit. nigel farage leading Vote Leave? lol.

vote leave was the creation of johnson/cummings and gove. period. not nigel farage.

Last edited by uziq (2022-04-11 02:38:10)

2022-04-11 02:43:09

#1332

Dilbert_X: The X stands for; +1,815|6366|eXtreme to the maX

Ok I wish you luck with your strategy of carefully researched and fully detailed predictions of the future which are wrong.

Fuck Israel

2022-04-11 02:46:12

#1333

uziq: Member; +497|3712

lol. so amazing. you start out saying you're a master at reading multiple news sources and seeing through the propaganda.

turns out you confuse nigel farage with vote leave and forgot what all the main players of brexit said on the record all of 3 years ago.

might i recommend taking a media studies degree?

2022-04-11 02:54:24

#1334

Dilbert_X: The X stands for; +1,815|6366|eXtreme to the maX

Might I suggest finding out who the main players actually were?

Fuck Israel

2022-04-11 02:59:42

#1335

uziq: Member; +497|3712

we are talking about the deal negotiation process. the process of political negotiation with the EU was undertaken by elected representatives from the british government. nigel farage has never been an elected member of parliament. he has had no say on negotiations or policy whatsoever.

vote leave are credited with delivering the campaign for brexit. UKIP were already a spent force electorally by that point. the conservatives had moved to absorb most of their talking points. nigel farage never got elected. his party was sinking into irrelevancy at the polls because the conservative party started pandering to their sentiments. the people who delivered the leave campaign were a bunch of tory MPs and their SPADs, e.g. dominic cummings. that's the actual core organisation who set-up and ran the public campaign. it was an official organisation that had to declare itself and abide by the rules of the electoral commission (never mind that they didn't, in the end): as a result, their organisation members are a matter of public record. nigel farage isn't one of them.

next? are facts so inconvenient to you?

if you're so in touch with life in the UK, why are you pretending that nigel farage is the main player in brexit negotiations? l m a o. next you'll be telling me that anne widdecombe was instrumental.

Last edited by uziq (2022-04-11 03:01:08)

2022-04-12 00:25:54

#1336

Dilbert_X: The X stands for; +1,815|6366|eXtreme to the maX

The deal negotiation process didn't matter, every time a deal was partially formulated the euro-sceptic wing of the tories pissed on it and the govt was in any case scared of Farage's opinion.

The whole thing, vote leave etc, was run to pacify ~20 rabid tories and Farage. They pulled the strings the question is who pulled their strings.

Fuck Israel

2022-04-13 00:47:58

#1337

Cybargs: Moderated; +2,285|6976

russia pulled their strings, bojo made an oligarchs son the baron of london and siberia.

https://cache.www.gametracker.com/server_info/203.46.105.23:21300/b_350_20_692108_381007_FFFFFF_000000.png

2022-04-13 01:04:44

#1338

uziq: Member; +497|3712

their relationship goes back much deeper than brexit. he owns the spectator, which is the paper boris wrote for when he was mostly a journalist/in the political hinterlands. it's nowhere near as simple as 'boris and senior tories were paid off by kremlin assets'.

the people who were thoroughly compromised by russian money and intelligence were ... farage and arron banks, his money-man/sugar daddy. but they were, again, explicitly kept out of the 'official' leave campaign, Vote Leave, and kept far away from the levers of power. farage is a media apparition, not a political player of any weight, and it's no surprise that his side of things were thoroughly tainted by russian propaganda. farage-banks are more like bannon: influential, yes, but very quickly excluded or expelled from the corridors of power (farage never got in).

not exactly an oligarch's son, either. his father was a KGB officer and he's the owner of one of russia's leading liberal/opposition newspapers. they actually had to quit their operation following the latest round of anti-war protest laws. if he's a kremlin plant, he's a very strange one. of course, he's been promulgating russia's soft power and helping london to become 'londongrad', amenable to international flows of dirty russian cash. but there's a lot of the rich russian business elite in london who are anti-putin.

Last edited by uziq (2022-04-13 01:06:27)

2022-04-13 01:37:14

#1339

Dilbert_X: The X stands for; +1,815|6366|eXtreme to the maX

I don't think Farage wanted power, he had one mission and he achieved it.

anti-putin? I they were really anti-putin they'd have been stripped of their wealth and thrown in prison.
They've all done a deal of some kind and not one is saying a word now.

I'll stick my neck out and say there are some senior tories who have taken Putin$ directly or indirectly and are now shitting themselves.
Johnson is top of the list of suspects, I'm sure there are gigabytes of UHD kompromat.

Fuck Israel

2022-04-13 01:52:01

#1340

uziq: Member; +497|3712

the editor of their russian paper, muratov, won the nobel peace prize for his journalistic efforts and integrity ... no small thing in putin's russia, considering how such journalists are vilified and even outright murdered.

he got attacked in public last week. baron siberia's russian paper, and his nobel prize-winning editor, are known for being oppositional to putin.

https://goodwordnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/04/62501d1c240000d9bb96eab0.jpeg

but again, don't let facts and actual research stand in the way of your vague rumblings.

2022-04-13 02:02:36

#1341

Dilbert_X: The X stands for; +1,815|6366|eXtreme to the maX

Putin has been bumping off journalists for years.

When actual oligarchs are getting offed you'll have a point.

Fuck Israel

2022-04-13 02:51:02

#1342

uziq: Member; +497|3712

what are you on about? i said that there are anti-putin, pro-business russians living in london.

i said that boris’s best pal, baron siberia, isn’t a straightforward kremlin plant: the media empire he and his father own have frequently been vocally critical of putinism.

you said that they’re not anti-putin at all. well the editor got a fucking nobel peace prize for his work in the threatened fourth estate of russia. that isn’t anti-putin enough for you?

it’s not as straightforward as concluding that all russian interests in london are also furthering the nutty authoritarian fantasies of the kremlin/putin. many are just businessmen who have enriched themselves and want to keep it that way. no different necessarily to the upper-middle-class russians who fled in the first weeks of the war. looking after themselves, furthering the use of City-based financial services for dodgy russian money, yes. but a kremlin intelligence plant? well, maybe. but maybe not.

trying to make out that their anti-putinism is performative or a trick is really reaching. the paper’s owners/editorial staff are endangering their liberties and lives already.

2022-04-13 03:09:15

#1343

Dilbert_X: The X stands for; +1,815|6366|eXtreme to the maX

I never said they're all plants.

Whatever their views, they've done a deal with Putin for their own survival.

Fuck Israel

2022-04-13 04:02:37

#1344

Cybargs: Moderated; +2,285|6976

uziq wrote:
the editor of their russian paper, muratov, won the nobel peace prize for his journalistic efforts and integrity ... no small thing in putin's russia, considering how such journalists are vilified and even outright murdered.

he got attacked in public last week. baron siberia's russian paper, and his nobel prize-winning editor, are known for being oppositional to putin.

but again, don't let facts and actual research stand in the way of your vague rumblings.

did that know that, thanks for the background but i onyl know of the kgb daddy cos of some vice interview when he was throwing money to help "rebuild crimea" and what not.

2022-04-13 04:59:04

#1345

uziq: Member; +497|3712

Dilbert_X wrote:
Whatever their views, they've done a deal with Putin for their own survival.

erm, sure. or, alternatively, they're still pursuing their profession in a country where it's a danger to their liberty and life, whilst you sit there making conspiratorial remarks about 'KGB kremlin assets'.

half the time the scary-sounding KGB stuff doesn't even make sense. putin is part of the intelligence community, of course, but the whole point of his 'new russia' is that it's really rather something different from the soviets. his recent ranting on the issue of ukraine directly criticizes senior soviets, from Lenin onwards, for their decisions towards ukraine. putin's views on the 'russian people' and 'russian lands' is positively tsarist. you know, those people that the soviets, and their OPGU/NKVD/KGB enforcers, staged a bloody revolution in order to depose.

there is ideological room for a KGB/soviet 'lifer' to be anti-putin. not saying it's likely or the norm; but it's possible. the actual soviet doctrine and line on the existence of ukraine was entirely pro-ukrainian, remember.

Last edited by uziq (2022-04-13 05:00:38)

2022-04-13 05:09:25

#1346

uziq: Member; +497|3712

Cybargs wrote:
uziq wrote:
the editor of their russian paper, muratov, won the nobel peace prize for his journalistic efforts and integrity ... no small thing in putin's russia, considering how such journalists are vilified and even outright murdered.

he got attacked in public last week. baron siberia's russian paper, and his nobel prize-winning editor, are known for being oppositional to putin.

but again, don't let facts and actual research stand in the way of your vague rumblings.
did that know that, thanks for the background but i onyl know of the kgb daddy cos of some vice interview when he was throwing money to help "rebuild crimea" and what not.

yeah, i'm not saying the owners' views are perfectly in line with the editorial line of their paper ... just that they fund and support such opinions, at some liability to theirselves. that's not nothing. it's really not so simple as saying that BoJo's contacts are out-and-out kremlin agents.

2022-04-13 21:14:10

#1347

Dilbert_X: The X stands for; +1,815|6366|eXtreme to the maX

uziq wrote:
Dilbert_X wrote:
Whatever their views, they've done a deal with Putin for their own survival.
erm, sure. or, alternatively, they're still pursuing their profession in a country where it's a danger to their liberty and life, whilst you sit there making conspiratorial remarks about 'KGB kremlin assets'.

half the time the scary-sounding KGB stuff doesn't even make sense. putin is part of the intelligence community, of course, but the whole point of his 'new russia' is that it's really rather something different from the soviets. his recent ranting on the issue of ukraine directly criticizes senior soviets, from Lenin onwards, for their decisions towards ukraine. putin's views on the 'russian people' and 'russian lands' is positively tsarist. you know, those people that the soviets, and their OPGU/NKVD/KGB enforcers, staged a bloody revolution in order to depose.

there is ideological room for a KGB/soviet 'lifer' to be anti-putin. not saying it's likely or the norm; but it's possible. the actual soviet doctrine and line on the existence of ukraine was entirely pro-ukrainian, remember.

This theory all sounds great but the simple fact is if Putin weren't sweet on the oligarchs and they weren't sweet on him they'd have found themselves on a pavement somewhere with a bullet in their heads or in a hospital bed dissolving to death - like all the other people Putin has killed so far.

Fuck Israel

2022-04-13 21:30:27

#1348

uziq: Member; +497|3712

clearly lebedev senior has an accommodation with putin. he lives and works in russia (though not without some abuse and hassle, as above).

but it's not so simple as saying that johnson's pal lord siberia is a straightforward agent of putin.

2022-04-14 01:11:42

#1349

Dilbert_X: The X stands for; +1,815|6366|eXtreme to the maX

Never remotely said anyone was an 'agent of Putin' did I?

Journalists getting offed or soaked in paint are reminders to journalists in general and the equivelent of the horses head in the bed to their owners.

Fuck Israel

2022-04-14 14:49:13