ig
This topic seems to have no actual posts
+1,199|6993
I found this on the TWL website and thought I'd pass it along.


Backstory

This story starts like most good stories – with a bit of writer hubris. Ok, I'll throw in a confession, too.

But just this once.

I am a camper. If that weren't bad enough, I am a spawn camper. For the uninitiated among you, a "spawn camper" is a person who waits at your spawn point for you to spawn, then frags you before you even realize you've spawned. For this article, I'll use the terms interchangeably; most consider a camper forever relegated to the ninth circle of hell, next to mutineers. You may ask why I do it, and my answer is simple: because the game engine allows it.

History

It started about 12 years ago. Doom ][ was popular, and I would often spend an entire night playing with a buddy on a map called Oldwest2, finding different places from which to kill one another. There was one spot that was nearly impossible to be killed from, a second floor dark room which I, of course, hid in while he ran around. Inevitably, I'd pop him with the double barreled shotgun, and he'd mention something about a Coleman and pitching a tent.

Fast forward 12 years, to two days ago.

I was playing Battlefield 2 on a public server, and we were on Wake Island 2007, a map already stacked against the USMC team from the outset. We had driven them off of the island, and in an effort to speed up the end of the round, I started to use artillery on the aircraft carrier. I was kicked for this behavior by an admin, who iterated that one of the server rules was "no attacking an uncapturable base." I rejoined after the customary one-minute kick, and the next map (Sharqi Peninsula) was already playing. As I joined the game, an Abrams Battle Tank was spawn-camping our uncapturable base. I asked the server admin if he was going to kick that player, too – after all, it's only fair, right? However, he didn't like the question, and five minutes later I was banned from the server for "not shutting up and playing after being warned." It's the only time I've been banned from a server for talking.

It was one of the few moments in my gaming life that I've actually sat back in shock. Here we are, in 2006, the age of acceptance and tolerance -- and I was banned for asking the admin why he didn't also kick another player for doing the exact same thing I had done?

It's All Part Of the Game

I suppose it all comes down to tactics. Some tactics are considered "cheap" or requiring "no skill," and in a community where one's "skillz" are revered by some, "no skill" tactics like camping are forbidden.

I've always hated being out-camped, and I've always hated someone killing me in a creative way I didn't expect when I camped, but I don't think I've ever kicked someone for camping, spawn or otherwise. I believe that if the game engine allows it, then it must be permissible. Note that I'm not talking about map exploits; I'm talking about game engine mechanics, like being able to blow a spawning sniper to kingdom come with a nice flick of the detonator switch on well-placed C4.

Wimps 'R' Us

Unfortunately, this tactic could get you kicked these days. I have the distinct impression our beloved gaming community has been taken over by wimps. These wimps are in the form of those players who want you to ask, "Mother may I?" before you bomb their runway. Or, perhaps even more insidiously, they want you to only use certain tactics against them. Hop like a bunny? Forget it. Use the grenade launcher from five feet away? No way. Heck, you'd better not do anything but run straight at them and see who's quicker on the draw. No sneaking, no peeking, no hiding, and certainly no camping.

Normally, the jeers of those you've just spawn-camped include "no skill noob" or something equally incomprehensible, but the part I always dislike is when the server admin kicks someone for it. A camper should never be kicked for doing what he does best, even if you believe there's no skill involved. Why do I think like this? Quite simply, a kill is a kill is a kill. If it's allowed by the game engine, and hasn't been patched out of the game, it should even be expected!

News Flash, Suzy. You can do it, too.

Artificial Rules

Any time you make artificial rules for a game, you are taking away from that game. You've probably seen it in your travels: "No camping an uncap," "No bunny hopping!" or "No commanders in vehicles!" The list goes on. These "rules" only serve to limit what players can do and set up artificial "safe" zones that take away from the enjoyment and depth of the game. Make no mistake, I hate being killed at my spawn too -- but that doesn't make the tactic any less valid.

The Solution

Spread the word. Have some fun, and do what makes you happy. There are servers out there that allow this kind of thing, and those are the servers you'll find me on. As for the ones that don't? I'll do it anyway, and if they want to kick me, that's their right.

After all, the game engine allows it.
Mekstizzle
WALKER
+3,611|7092|London, England
I usually just switch teams and TK the stupid commander that arty'd the uncap. Hey, that's possible in the game so nothing's wrong about that. Roll on.
killer21
Because f*ck you that's why.
+400|7062|Reisterstown, MD

I confess that I wait in a spawn for people so I can shock paddle them.  I love doing that.
Mj.Blindfisch
Bulletdrop-Buddha
+338|7168|Germany

ig88 wrote:

After all, the game engine allows it.

killer21 wrote:

I confess that I wait in a spawn for people so I can shock paddle them.  I love doing that.
That's the problem.
Everybody demanded something,we got some stupid nerfs and a few things which are still not ideal but also still changing.
But the obvious hasn't been coded out yet nor was it even mentioned by DICE/EA.

3-5 seconds invincibility after spawning,that's enough time to look around and fire.People will bitch about that then aswell but at least it's a step towards more fairness.

Last edited by Mj.Blindfisch (2006-08-18 10:25:31)

killer21
Because f*ck you that's why.
+400|7062|Reisterstown, MD

It doesn't matter to me if people get this spawn armor as I played BHD and am used to it from that game.  I think a lot of the problems today with BF2 is the fact that newbie players complain that they are getting p00ned and do not have the wherewithall to adjust their tactics to combat getting raped.  A lot of the nerfing done by EA/DICE are the result of nubs whining about every little thing.  People cried about the pkm being to powerful, so they nerfed the pkm.  People whined about c4 throwing, so EA/DICE nerfed that.  Pretty soon, you will have everyone running around in circles trying like retards because rookies have whined so much.
ig
This topic seems to have no actual posts
+1,199|6993

killer21 wrote:

It doesn't matter to me if people get this spawn armor as I played BHD and am used to it from that game.  I think a lot of the problems today with BF2 is the fact that newbie players complain that they are getting p00ned and do not have the wherewithall to adjust their tactics to combat getting raped.  A lot of the nerfing done by EA/DICE are the result of nubs whining about every little thing.  People cried about the pkm being to powerful, so they nerfed the pkm.  People whined about c4 throwing, so EA/DICE nerfed that.  Pretty soon, you will have everyone running around in circles trying like retards because rookies have whined so much.
couldnt agree more
Drexel
Member
+43|6947|Philadelphia
Now, Don't take this the wrong way, You are allowed your opinions, and I'm allowed to mine.  I read your entire post and am not bashing you for it, I'm just offering my opinions in a response.

     First of all, I feel that Spawn-camping is not punishable by a kick, however, I feel that spawn-camping an uncapable flag is.  If you are getting killed over and over by a spawn-camper at a normal flag, it's a simple thing to switch to a different spawn point.  Now, Camping an Uncapable flag is different.  When there aren't any other flags and the entire team is spawning at their uncapable flag, then it is very unprofessional to camp that base.  Part of the game entitles "Flag Defense Points."  What better way to get these than allow the enemy to get to your flag and then kill them.

     Now, the part about the Artillery, There is never any reason to bomb the Uncapable flags.  When I'm commander, I just sit there and wait for them to run to a flag that none of my team is at and then let them have it.  That way, you aren't pissing people off on the other team, making them leave the server, and you are actually helping your team out. 

     Now, I'm the Leader of the =WFC= (War Force Clan)'s BF2 Division, thus I have admin to our server.  Our server poses rules governing the server like:  no spawn-camping uncapables, no cartillery, no commanders in vehicles, and so on.  I will always kick people who don't follow the rules because we have them for a reason.  If commanders are in a plane, then how in the world are they supposed to do their job?  If you are commander, why drop cars on the enemy other than just to piss them off?  We have these rules on our server to keep the gaming experience a good one, so that people don't come in and exploit the game and cause our server to become empty.  If you really don't enjoy the rules to a server, there's one simple thing you can do:  Don't waste your/mine/everyone's time and just go find some other server to play in.

    Now once again, I am in no way disagreeing with anyone here, everyone has their own opinion.  I feel that If EA really didn't want this going on they'd fix it, but they obviously don't see this as a problem so it's all good.  One thing that I'd love is if the jump would only make you go about knee high off the ground.  I've never seen anyone carrying 50 pounds of gear jump twice their height ever.  But once again that's my opinion.  Lot's of people like how you can hop around all you want, I'm not one of them.  But instead of complaining about it, I just leave the server if I get sick of it.

Thanks for reading this,

=WFC=Gen.Drexel[BF2]
Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|6941
To be fair- nobody can whine about BF2 spawn-camping, not when there are multiple different spawn locations that you have the CHOICE to spawn at. You should lighten up on the odd occasional insta-kill and just move onto a different location.

People should try playing an older game like Ghost Recon. I loved and breathed that game for around 3 years, having pretty big league sucess. One thing I did get out of the game was an immunity to spawn-rage. Ghost Recon's gameplay basically revolves around team-deathmatch in which everyone dies once, and then gets spawn camped for their remaining 4/5 lives. Best league gameplay ever, haha!
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
spawnofthemist
Banned
+1,128|7113|Burmecia, Land of the Rain
spawncamp away. if the smurfs dont like it. good.


do it some more.
Chao2
Member
+8|7186|UK(stats says usa by mistake)
Nothing More Fun then going Anti Tank at the enemy airfield, well maybe getting in an AA vehicle but atleast they dont see the AT rockets coming.
Snake
Missing, Presumed Dead
+1,046|7037|England

The 5second invincibility thing from when you spawn is a good idea. Why they never brought that into a game like this, I will never understand. We had it in SOF2, and that had no vehicles at all. This game has armour, jets, helis - you name it, which can spawn rape to their hearts desire.

I have no problem with spawn raping - the only reason it occurs is because of unfair teams, or a team is to retarded to go out and actually cap a flag. If that is the case, then it is their fault.
Raping Uncaps is kinda lame, but its a part of the game. I do it, hell everyone does it.

TV2 servers, despite having the most fucked up "swear filter" in the game (Im sorry, but how the fuck is the word "suck" swearing???), allow spawn raping, including uncaps. Dalian - Chinese get about 5 APC's sat around the US carrier and J10's bombing it over and over. And that includes Arty onto the carrier.

But, to be fair, nothing is more fun than getting a 6man squad onto the carrier, 1 medic, 1 support and 4 AT guys. Maybe a sniper instead to put claymores on the ladders to stop enemies getting up it.

Last edited by Snake (2006-08-18 11:30:15)

Drexel
Member
+43|6947|Philadelphia
The way that I see it, Everyone hates being spawncamped, I don't know anyone who can dissagree with that.  What I dislike is when the few people have the mindset that "I hate it when they do it to me, so I'll do it to them."  If everyone would stop doing this, everyone would be happy and this forums wouldn't be full of posts like this.
VeNg3nCe^
¦Tactics Øver Principles¦
+314|7177|Antarctica
Spawn camping is my fav thing to do in BF2 besides baserape.    Spawn camp FTW!
killer21
Because f*ck you that's why.
+400|7062|Reisterstown, MD

VeNg3nCe^ wrote:

Spawn camping is my fav thing to do in BF2 besides baserape.    Spawn camp FTW!
ChyneseGUY
Member
+20|6956
i hate when i get spawn killed constantly, like a tank camping hotel on karkand or getting j-10'd and heli'd on the arty island on wake. the only times im truly camping is : 1. sniping obviously, 2. hiding from enemy armor, 3. camping that one patio in the back in north village on wake (more for capping the flag then spawnkilling)
tyme414
Member
+29|7112
Attacking an uncappable base is perfectly fine, whether the team has other flags or they dont. The uncappable is not meant to be a safe zone for everyone so they cannot be killed and just wait for vehicles. If you want to win the round, you have to immobilize the other teams asset's (Planes, Choppers, Tanks etc) and they are usually spawned at an uncappable. As for spawn camping, if you are camping a flag at a spawn point, it's cheap yes, but its a good tactic. If the other team has trouble spawning and running to the flag to defend it, then it is much easier for you to cap, yes? If you're being spawn camped by infantry, its very easy to double tap your 'w' key and do a 180 jump and pop them, they dont expect to move right away. The only rule I agree with on most servers is the 'commander in vehicles is not allowed'. Everything else, deal with it.
killer21
Because f*ck you that's why.
+400|7062|Reisterstown, MD

Easy solution to people whining about spawn camping.  Don't be a lemming and respawn at the same place.  If you don't have any flags, it's your frigging fault.  If you have some flags, don't be a frigging retard and respawn at the same flag.  Perfect example.  It's Karkand and the 16 player map. (infantry  only).   Your team, US, captures the hotel but doesn't get anymore flags.  MEC spawn camps the four spots that you can spawn at.  If they are doing that, spawn at one of the three back bases stupid.  Run down the far right or left side and capture the Market.  Wow, that is a neat idea.  I do love lemmings tho. 

Last edited by killer21 (2006-08-18 12:34:44)

Goven
/̵͇̿̿/'̿'̿ ̿
+125|6952|Purdue

killer21 wrote:

  People whined about c4 throwing, so EA/DICE nerfed that. 
They're nerfing it again
kn0ckahh
Member
+98|7209|netherlands, sweet lake city
lol I bunnyhop   prone/duck-glitch     I don't really spawncamp but if I  see someone spawning w0000   kill for me ... the guy who wrote it is right about that the battlefield community has a lot of wimps who cant get over the fact that they have to w8 15 secs longer....
i mean a spawnkill is a cheap kill but it's still a kill.... the whole point of battlefield is killing each other
and it's just stupid that there are so fucking many servers that say:  you may not kill each other in every way necessary... (xcuse me for my bad langue)
MajorHoulahan_MASH
Member
+31|7193
Nice writing.
You might look for a server called Anarchy - or something like it - where everything is allowed : spawncamp, teamkill, arty on uncaps, stealing vehicles, no admins, you name it...

It might be fun as a diversion, the downside of that server is nobody there plays the BF2 game itself as it was intended to play; no teamwork whatsoever, and that  becomes a boring way  to "play" after a few rounds.
Mj.Blindfisch
Bulletdrop-Buddha
+338|7168|Germany

MajorHoulahan_MASH wrote:

Nice writing.
You might look for a server called Anarchy - or something like it - where everything is allowed : spawncamp, teamkill, arty on uncaps, stealing vehicles, no admins, you name it...

It might be fun as a diversion, the downside of that server is nobody there plays the BF2 game itself as it was intended to play; no teamwork whatsoever, and that  becomes a boring way  to "play" after a few rounds.
Sounds partially like every 24/7 Karkand server...
SEREMAKER
BABYMAKIN EXPERT √
+2,187|7039|Mountains of NC

this is a trick I did and I'm sure its been used before and probably posted before -----
I was MEC commander and we were getting spawn camped at our last flag ( the factory ) but as commander on 64 player I wasn't allowed to fight so most of the round I stayed hidden and moved around but I was getting to teamwork and thats why we were down to 1 flag,
using VOIP I informed my team what I wanted them to do, I resigned as commander and became a squad leader and invited as many as I could, the team would spawn enter into my squad and then they got killed but they would respawn on me, after I got my entire squad on me I told them to leave my squad and make there own and get MEC out of that camp area, I resumed commander and we were able to get back 4 flags but it was too late, we lost

Last edited by SEREMAKER (2006-08-18 13:01:54)

https://static.bf2s.com/files/user/17445/carhartt.jpg
OpsChief
Member
+101|7147|Southern California
I'm not sure I've ever actually intentionally camped (remained stationary for the purpose of killing freshly spawned players or Salmon). But I have blown away any enemy in my sights regardless of how they got there. Armor needs to manuever to be effective in team play. I have been accused of it but the definition of camping changes on every server and usually means don't kill a spawning admin more than zero times. Lemmings is right man.

It isn't unusual to find me on say, FuShe at the West Mine Entrance up on the elevated road covering the capping squad with the AA vehicle from enemy air/ground interference. It is a great overwatch position. I was an active part of the flag cap but my role was ranged supporting/suppressive fire. Camping lol I swear I never have time to pitch a tent between all the jets, helos and pesky grunts. Same concept on any map.

The term 'camping' is disfunctional in BF2.
URE_DED
BF2s US Server Admin
+76|7090|inside the recesses of your...

Snake wrote:

I have no problem with spawn raping - the only reason it occurs is because of unfair teams, or a team is to retarded to go out and actually cap a flag. If that is the case, then it is their fault.
I agree, but it sucks to be the only player with a clue and suffer because you are surrounded by morons.  The reason for the rules is balance, my friends.  #3 on the list  Commandments of Online Video Gaming is don't discourage newbies.  This goes back farther than I can remember but I used to play MUDs (text based adventure games) and advanced players were very accomodating to noobs. 

I guess all things change.  People can't stand each other in the real world - why would they give a crap about a faceless noob dying 15 times in a row.  I feel bad for that kid and the $50 he shelled out.  And I feel bad for the decent players who are helpless just because they are on the wrong team.
lord_tyler_486
Member
+54|7223|Upper Franconia
The uncapturable bases have so many defense stuff like mounted MGs and tanks spawning. The problem is just, nobody uses them correctly. Noone ever actually DEFENDS an uncapturable base because they all rely on on their 'oh admin that guy is spawn camping, kick him or ill go to momma and cry alot!'
And if a whole team is not able to defend one flag, then hell they don't deserve anything but being spawn raped.

Oh and btw, if you are spawning in Karkand Hotel and there are some guys spawncamping and they kill you again and again, you could maybe do some insane dolphin diving action instead of whining and dying all the time, it works. Also, there is already an invincibility time right after spawning, but not even a second. You might notice this if you put claymore on a spawn point or C4 somebody too early. They won't die.

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