Jainus wrote:
HM1{N} wrote:
I don't forget about the nations of the world, I live in one with a short and colorful history. Their history is not the point of contention here, Israel's is. It's not a matter of my "playing that card" but rather, Israel continuing it's policy of genocide while manipulating the media into having a pro-israeli stance. Their obvious theft of human life for the sake of land is something that the world needs to stand up to and stop, and it should all begin here in the U.S. For the record, they all HAVE been very naughty boys...
So all nations are guilty of it but you only want to penalise Israel for it? Interesting position; either your even handed or your not. 'Do as i say and not as i do' springs to mind. If you stop Israel from doing this, then you need to address every other nation that has done it in the past. If you don't, you just set a double standard that will alienate the people you are trying to negotiate with, dooming you to failure.
I never said that, but the fact of the matter is the U.S. is not practicing genocide to gain territory now, is it? I seem to remember the U.S. doing something in Bosnia/Herzegovina when the same actions were taking place. Where's the balance? You want me to be fair, well, we did something about that, but we do nothing about Israel and condemn Palestine and Hezbollah for fighting back...there is no double standard, it's about what is RIGHT.
Jainus wrote:
HM1{N} wrote:
This is probably the most logical comment I have heard yet. I seriously doubt there will ever be trust between the two parties, Israel has broken that trust so many times...
Look wider afield, both sides have broken the trust, not just Israel. Stop looking at only one side. Without understanding someone elses position, you will not be able to bargain (which is all negotiation is) effectively with them. People will always fear what they don't understand, and will always come to hate what they fear; get a little understanding and you can start to cut through the layers of hate that exists on both sides to get the trust that is needed.
I never said that Hez was innocent. In fact I acknowledged their taking of the Israeli soldiers. I understand both sides, but what people don't realize is that Israels PUBLIC side is one of lies and deception. That whole area in the middle-east has been the victim of the Israeli war machine for decades. The PLO, Hamas and Hezbollah were created in response to Israel's terrorist actions. If you are looking for the root cause, look no further than Israel, because if it didn't exist, either would those organizations formed to fight it.
As far as the hate on both sides go, Israel hates anyone that isn't a Zionist Jew. The Israeli political agenda is one of mass annexation and extermination of all those in that area that aren't Jewish. The Palestinians and Hezbollah have a RIGHT to defend themselves, and they have a RIGHT to hate Israel for it's actions. That's what people need to understand. Peace in the middle-east must start with Israel abiding by international law, something they have never done.
History has shown over and over that when a peace deal there is reached, it is typically Israel that breaks it, then spins the media to claim the other side is at fault. Example: Israel warships shells civilians on holiday on the beach during a truce. Then a suicide bomber blows himself up in Israel.
Jainus wrote:
HM1{N} wrote:
What people fail to realize is that this isn't about Hezbollah, it's about Israel seeing an opportunity to lay waste to Lebanon and taking it, nothing more. When you say that I haven't addressed your point about dealing with terrorists I ask this in response: who is the terrorist and why? If you say Hezbollah, then why are they terrorists? Because they took 2 Israeli soldiers to get back the thousands of Lebanese rotting in Israeli jails? Or Israel because their policy is one of mass genocide and annexation? Seems to me that Hezbollah hadn't done anything for a LONG time until the taking of the 2 soldiers, yet Israel continued to murder people on a daily basis. Personally, I don't believe Hezbollah to be a terrorist organization, sure they may be funded by Iran and Syria, but that's only because Israel is funded by the U.S. You tell me what is better, funding a terrorist state with high tech weapons so they can produce mass genocide, or fund a self-defense force like Hezbollah with AK's and RPG's that are very specific in their kill patterns? Seems to me that the U.S. should stop funding Israel and let the middle-east fight it out without U.S. backing, we have to be fair after all about not negotiating with terrorists and all...
I would classify a terrorist as anyone that deals with terror against a civilian population. In my opinion Israel are using terrorist tactics in its carpet bombing, making them terrorists themselves. I also believe that Hezbollah blindly shooting rocket into civilian centres of no military value is a terrorist act making them terrorists.
As for which is worse Iran/Syria or the U.S.; its simple they're both as bad as each other. All parties are supplying weapons that they know will be used against the civilian populace. And don't try and give me any crap about "specific kill patterns" unless your acknowledging that Hezbollah launched those rockets into non-military Israeli villages with the sole purpose of causing civilian death. At least Israel can try (and fail miserably) to say that they were bombing Hezbollah positions; what were Hez doing to the villages? Attacking the secret tank that wasn't there? The only "specific kill pattern" that has been used is the targeting of Israeli civilians, unless you wish to try and provide something different? Good luck
So for the sake of argument, lets assume your right and the U.S. stops funding Israel. Will Syria and Iran stop funding Hezbollah? Will you happily watch as Hamas, Hezbollah, PLO and a legion of others attack Israel but then cry foul when Mossad hits back or IDF bombs a bus in the middle of a market?
First: thanks for admitting that Israel is a terrorist state.
Second: Crap about specific kill patterns? How about this:
Hezbollah didn't launch a single rocket until 2 days of Israeli carptet bombing and artillery fire on civilian areas had passed. Is what Hezbollah did with rockets wrong? Yes. Can I understand why? Yes. It's tit-for-tat out there, you kill my civilians, I kill yours.
Will I cry foul? No. Do I think Israel could take them without the backing of the U.S.? No. If the U.S. stops funding them the war is over out there, Israel, through sheer numbers of the opposition alone, would have to concede and start abiding by international law. A war with Syria, Iran, Egypt, Jordan, etc...would decimate Israel (without our backing).
Jainus wrote:
HM1{N} wrote:
The war hawks in Israel won't let it because they won't give back what they took. .
And Hezbollah/etc won't accept it either cos there's still a Jew left breathing. Again, your quick to point out Israel's shortcomings but seem completely blind to the short comings of the other terrorists. There is no balance nor even the attempt at balance in your posts. Have your beliefs and opinions by all means, slate Israel to your hearts content but don't try and pull the curtain on all the other crap that is going on.
That is just not true. Hezbollah hasn't been conducting terrorist attacks against Israel. A skirmish with soldiers mano-a-mano does not constitue a terrorist action, where carpet bombing the civilians in the southern half of Lebanon does. See my point? Pull the curtain on all the other crap you say? What about the thousands of Lebanese rotting in Israeli jails, suffering torture and other forms of inhuman crimes? Why are they there 3 decades after they were supposed to be released? THAT'S why Hez kidnapped 2 soldiers. Stop blaming them for trying to get back their people. What would you do if it was your sister imprisoned unjustly for 3 decades? Say it's OK and not do anything to get them back? I think 30 years is long enough to wait for their release...
Jainus wrote:
HM1{N} wrote:
The only way to peace is by Israel abiding by all U.N. resolutions including borders, and that will never happen. So yes, I bash Israel, they are at the most fault. They consistently ignore the U.N. and break every deal that is made, or only partially comply when it doesn't hurt them. My solution begins here at home, stop the aid to Israel. Without high tech weapons, supplies and other things they need, they will be forced to come down to the level of the countries surrounding it and negotiate honestly. With the U.S. war machine backing it there will never be peace.
No. The only way to peace is for
both sides to moderate their position. To expect Israel to fold with no concessions from her enemies is blind and frankly absurd. Would the Israeli's ever accept such an arrangement? No, so the fighting would start again and you've achieved nothing except another x number of years when both sides can claim that they tried, the other side were unreasonable and now they're just going to kill the lot of them.
What concessions? Give Israel all the land they stole (and continue to steal) and allow them to continue their acts of genocide? You forget that Palestine agreed to the cease fire and truce, but Israel didn't live up to their end again. Instead they killed innocent civilians and continue to illegally occupy a foreign country with their military while taking more and more land every day.
Jainus wrote:
Your solution is flawed right from the off because negotiation is give and take. What your proposing is all give from the Israeli view point; it simply will not work. Keep this ceasefire in place and start with something small that both sides can agree on to get the ball rolling towards peace. Reparations for some of the families (only some yes because you need to start these things with small steps and in the fullness of time get the reparations for everybody) affected seems ideal to me but there are other ideas that people have. The road to a lasting peace will be rocky but until people like yourself and those in the Middle East itself (which includes Israel before you get on the high horse again) moderate, there will never be a compromise because they won't!!
Once again, Israel didn't live up to it. They started the aggression again by shelling civilians on a beach. Israel's version of a cease fire is to disarm everyone in the region and allow them to continue to kill innocent civilians and steal their land. It
HAS TO START with Israel abiding by the terms of the cease fires, the U.N. resolutions, and the discontinuance of U.S. backing until they do...