yeah that's, that's kinda weird, archaic even considering the catholic/protestant tensions of not too long ago, I still wasn't expecting to hear thatKmarion wrote:
Never knew that.IG-Calibre wrote:
in the UK, it claims it's a democracy yet a Catholic cannot be Prime Minister..
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Forget Tom Cruise. John Travolta is going to arrive with all his Battlefield Earth junkies.Kmarion wrote:
You now have a powerful enemy in Tom Cruise...buLLet_t00th wrote:
with only Scientology behind it as the most stupid!
http://theunfunnytruth.ytmnd.com/
That's not true.IG-Calibre wrote:
Although fair fucks to the Americans at least that is a democracy, in the UK, it claims it's a democracy yet a Catholic cannot be Prime Minister..
None of that's true either, unless your definition of a few decades is a LOT of decades.IG-Calibre wrote:
Yeah Kmarion - they talk about the UK being the oldest democracy in the world - but they only gave the uppity Catholics the right to vote a few decades ago imagine that..
The oldest democracy in the world is Greece.
There was never anything in the Catholic Relief Act of 1829 to stop Catholics from voting. The Catholic Relief Act was introduced because a Catholic had been elected as an MP (Daniel O'Connell). The act allowed Catholics to have a seat in Parliment. There is nothing in the Catholic Relief Act which prevents a Catholic from becoming Prime Minister, to say so is a gross misinterpretation of the text of the document.IG-Calibre wrote:
As far as i'm aware the The Catholic Reform Act 1829 has never been repealed - so a Catholic cannot be Prime Minister - the end, do you want some salt and pepper for your foot?
Of course the act hasn't been repealled, that would mean Cathlolics couldn't have seats in Parliment.
Nothing about not becoming Prime Minister in there. It just says no member of Parliment can take orders from Rome, perfectly understandable not wanting your politicians to be taking orders from an outside source. It does prohibit Catholics from some things.Catholic Relief Act of 1829 wrote:
And be it further Enacted, That no person in holy orders in the Church of Rome, shall be capable of being elected to serve in Parliament as a Member of the House of Commons; and if any such person shall be elected to serve in Parliament as aforesaid, such election shall be void; and if any person, being elected to serve in parliament as a Member of the House of Commons shall, after his election, take or receive holy orders in the Church of Rome, the seat of such person shall immediately become void;
And be it Enacted, That it shall be lawful for any of His Majesty’s subjects professing the Roman Catholic religion, to hold, exercise and enjoy all civil and military offices and places of trust or profit under His Majesty, His heirs or successors, and to exercise any other franchise or civil right, except as hereinafter excepted, upon taking and subscribing, at the times and in the manner hereinafter mentioned, the Oath hereinbefore appointed and set forth.
Provided always, and be it Enacted, That nothing herein contained shall be construed to exempt any person professing the Roman Catholic religion from the necessity of taking any Oath or Oaths.
Provided also, and be it further Enacted, That nothing herein contained shall extend or be construed to extend to enable any person or persons professing the Roman Catholic religion, to hold or exercise the office of Guardians and Justices of the United Kingdom, or of Regent of the United Kingdom, under whatever name, style or title such office may be constituted; nor to enable any person, otherwise than as he is now by law enabled, to hold or enjoy the office of Lord High Chancellor, Lord Keeper or Lord Commissioner of the Great Seal of Great Britain or Ireland; or the office of Lord Lieutenant, or Lord Deputy, or other Chief Governor or Governors of Ireland, or His Majesty’s High commissioner to the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland.
"That it shall be lawful for any of His Majesty’s subjects professing the Roman Catholic religion, to hold, exercise and enjoy all civil and military offices and places of trust or profit under His Majesty"
That clearly states they can hold any civil or military role. Prime Minister is a civil office and can be held by a Catholic. The Bill does state that a Catholic cannot advise the Sovereign on any appointments within the Church of England. But does the Pope allow Protestants to decide on appointments within the Catholic church? Of course not.
Why do you think it is called the Catholic Relief Act? Because it made things better for Catholics, not worse. The paper at the heart of it is The Emancipation Bill - which sounds just like a document used to oppress Catholics doesn't it.
Catholics could already vote, although there were restrictions imposed, what you haven't mentioned is that the restrictions were imposed on everybody not just Catholics. You had to be a land owner to vote, no matter what, Catholics had to own more land to be able to vote, but they still could.
My opinion exactly. It's a good thing.ATG wrote:
I am alright with Muslims in high places in America, it may help calm the fanatics around the world who think we are at war with Islam.
Last edited by Bertster7 (2006-09-14 10:52:05)
That's because it's not true.kr@cker wrote:
yeah that's, that's kinda weird, archaic even considering the catholic/protestant tensions of not too long ago, I still wasn't expecting to hear thatKmarion wrote:
Never knew that.IG-Calibre wrote:
in the UK, it claims it's a democracy yet a Catholic cannot be Prime Minister..
Kind of interesting that in the first paragraph no Catholic with holy orders can be a member of the house of commons, or, should they get elected and become a Catholic & recieve ordes then their seat becomes void. Now would you like to explain to me on the basis of what you presented there how the fuck could a Catholic possibly become Prime Minister when they can't even have a seat in Parliament? you do understand that the Prime Minister has to be elected to & hold a seat in Parliament before he can become Prime Minister? - Now based on what you have posted there as justification is completely wrong sorry. Discrimination exists the rev Paisley and co can sit in the house of commons yet no one with holy orders can until this day. Is the Archbishop of Westminster sitting in the house of Lords with all the Arch Bishops? No, why? because he's Catholic. Discrimination against Catholics exists in the British Democratic system.Bertster7 wrote:
That's not true.IG-Calibre wrote:
Although fair fucks to the Americans at least that is a democracy, in the UK, it claims it's a democracy yet a Catholic cannot be Prime Minister..None of that's true either, unless your definition of a few decades is a LOT of decades.IG-Calibre wrote:
Yeah Kmarion - they talk about the UK being the oldest democracy in the world - but they only gave the uppity Catholics the right to vote a few decades ago imagine that..
The oldest democracy in the world is Greece.There was never anything in the Catholic Relief Act of 1829 to stop Catholics from voting. The Catholic Relief Act was introduced because a Catholic had been elected as an MP (Daniel O'Connell). The act allowed Catholics to have a seat in Parliment. There is nothing in the Catholic Relief Act which prevents a Catholic from becoming Prime Minister, to say so is a gross misinterpretation of the text of the document.IG-Calibre wrote:
As far as i'm aware the The Catholic Reform Act 1829 has never been repealed - so a Catholic cannot be Prime Minister - the end, do you want some salt and pepper for your foot?
Of course the act hasn't been repealled, that would mean Cathlolics couldn't have seats in Parliment.Nothing about not becoming Prime Minister in there. It just says no member of Parliment can take orders from Rome, perfectly understandable not wanting your politicians to be taking orders from an outside source. It does prohibit Catholics from some things.Catholic Relief Act of 1829 wrote:
And be it further Enacted, That no person in holy orders in the Church of Rome, shall be capable of being elected to serve in Parliament as a Member of the House of Commons; and if any such person shall be elected to serve in Parliament as aforesaid, such election shall be void; and if any person, being elected to serve in parliament as a Member of the House of Commons shall, after his election, take or receive holy orders in the Church of Rome, the seat of such person shall immediately become void;
And be it Enacted, That it shall be lawful for any of His Majesty’s subjects professing the Roman Catholic religion, to hold, exercise and enjoy all civil and military offices and places of trust or profit under His Majesty, His heirs or successors, and to exercise any other franchise or civil right, except as hereinafter excepted, upon taking and subscribing, at the times and in the manner hereinafter mentioned, the Oath hereinbefore appointed and set forth.
Provided always, and be it Enacted, That nothing herein contained shall be construed to exempt any person professing the Roman Catholic religion from the necessity of taking any Oath or Oaths.
Provided also, and be it further Enacted, That nothing herein contained shall extend or be construed to extend to enable any person or persons professing the Roman Catholic religion, to hold or exercise the office of Guardians and Justices of the United Kingdom, or of Regent of the United Kingdom, under whatever name, style or title such office may be constituted; nor to enable any person, otherwise than as he is now by law enabled, to hold or enjoy the office of Lord High Chancellor, Lord Keeper or Lord Commissioner of the Great Seal of Great Britain or Ireland; or the office of Lord Lieutenant, or Lord Deputy, or other Chief Governor or Governors of Ireland, or His Majesty’s High commissioner to the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland.
"That it shall be lawful for any of His Majesty’s subjects professing the Roman Catholic religion, to hold, exercise and enjoy all civil and military offices and places of trust or profit under His Majesty"
That clearly states they can hold any civil or military role. Prime Minister is a civil office and can be held by a Catholic. The Bill does state that a Catholic cannot advise the Sovereign on any appointments within the Church of England. But does the Pope allow Protestants to decide on appointments within the Catholic church? Of course not.
Why do you think it is called the Catholic Relief Act? Because it made things better for Catholics, not worse. The paper at the heart of it is The Emancipation Bill - which sounds just like a document used to oppress Catholics doesn't it.
Catholics could already vote, although there were restrictions imposed, what you haven't mentioned is that the restrictions were imposed on everybody not just Catholics. You had to be a land owner to vote, no matter what, Catholics had to own more land to be able to vote, but they still could.My opinion exactly. It's a good thing.ATG wrote:
I am alright with Muslims in high places in America, it may help calm the fanatics around the world who think we are at war with Islam.
Last edited by IG-Calibre (2006-09-15 10:52:43)
They can become MPs. That is entirely the point of the act in the first place. I did mention earlier it was brought in for the very reason of allowing a Catholic MP (Daniel O'Connell) into the house of commons. All that it means is that a Catholic priest cannot be an MP, which is a very different thing. That's what being a "person in holy orders of the Church of Rome" means, not just your run of the mill Catholic (who are described as "subjects professing the Roman Catholic religion").IG-Calibre wrote:
Kind of interesting that in the first paragraph no Catholic with holy orders can be a member of the house of commons, or, should they get elected and become a Catholic & recieve ordes then their seat becomes void. Now would you like to explain to me on the basis of what you presented there how the fuck could a Catholic possibly become Prime Minister when they can't even have a seat in Parliament?
You have misinterpreted the first paragraph and taken it out of context - it was brought in to allow Catholics to become MPs.
He does indeed. That is exactly what this act allowed. Prior to this Emancipation Bill a Catholic could not become an MP. After it Catholics could.IG-Calibre wrote:
you do understand that the Prime Minister has to be elected to & hold a seat in Parliament before he can become Prime Minister? - Now based on what you have posted there as justification is completely wrong sorry.
There are a number of Catholic MPs in government today. Ann Widdecombe is a quite high profile Catholic MP.
There is nothing preventing a Catholic from being PM. If a Catholic were elected they would become PM, simple as that.
I didn't say it didn't. You can't be a Catholic priest and in government. That's pretty much it.IG-Calibre wrote:
Discrimination exists the rev Paisley and co can sit in the house of commons yet no one with holy orders can until this day. Is the Archbishop of Westminster sitting in the house of Lords with all the Arch Bishops? No, why? because he's Catholic. Discrimination against Catholics exists in the British Democratic system.
actually you can't have holy orders and be am member of Parliament, there are essentially lay people who have holy orders not just priests - and all are discriminated against.
No there aren't.IG-Calibre wrote:
actually you can't have holy orders and be am member of Parliament, there are essentially lay people who have holy orders not just priests - and all are discriminated against.
Bishops, priests and deacons - which are all essentially priests. They are certainly all members of the clergy.Every man in Holy Orders is either a deacon, priest or bishop. A monsignor, for instance, is a priest who has special recognition as a member of the papal household. An archbishop is a bishop in charge of a large or important diocese called an archdiocese. A cardinal is a special member of the papal household. Nearly all cardinals are bishops, but there are one or two cardinals who are priests, such as Avery Cardinal Dulles, are priests. The pope is the Bishop of Rome.
Only men can be ordained in the Sacrament of Holy Orders. The reasons are set forth in Pope John Paul II’s apostolic letter Ordinatio Sacerdotalis. It concludes, “I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church’s faithful.”
Back to the original point anyway, a Catholic can be PM, so long as they're not a bishop, a priest or a deacon.
Last edited by Bertster7 (2006-09-16 13:21:26)
why are you even discussing this. does it bother you that he is Muslim, you already have a religious fanatic as president,
i wanna see thatbuLLet_t00th wrote:
IF YOU CAN SHOW ME ANYWHERE WHERE THERE'S A LAW STOPPING A CATHOLIC BECOMING PM ILL EAT MY OWN FOOT!
You misunderstand the Diaconate are not Priests, for instance they can be married with Children and fulfill a specific role, yet they have still taken holy orders & thus would be disqualified from being a member of Parliament. So it still stands, there is enshrined in British law a discrimination against Catholics in ParliamentBertster7 wrote:
No there aren't.IG-Calibre wrote:
actually you can't have holy orders and be am member of Parliament, there are essentially lay people who have holy orders not just priests - and all are discriminated against.Bishops, priests and deacons - which are all essentially priests. They are certainly all members of the clergy.Every man in Holy Orders is either a deacon, priest or bishop. A monsignor, for instance, is a priest who has special recognition as a member of the papal household. An archbishop is a bishop in charge of a large or important diocese called an archdiocese. A cardinal is a special member of the papal household. Nearly all cardinals are bishops, but there are one or two cardinals who are priests, such as Avery Cardinal Dulles, are priests. The pope is the Bishop of Rome.
Only men can be ordained in the Sacrament of Holy Orders. The reasons are set forth in Pope John Paul II’s apostolic letter Ordinatio Sacerdotalis. It concludes, “I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church’s faithful.”
Back to the original point anyway, a Catholic can be PM, so long as they're not a bishop, a priest or a deacon.
Last edited by IG-Calibre (2006-09-16 17:38:00)
Alright, fair enough. They're almost priests though, they have to be ordained.IG-Calibre wrote:
You misunderstand the Diaconate are not Priests, for instance they can be married with Children and fulfill a specific role, yet they have still taken holy orders & thus would be disqualified from being a member of Parliament. So it still stands, there is enshrined in British law a discrimination against Catholics in ParliamentBertster7 wrote:
No there aren't.IG-Calibre wrote:
actually you can't have holy orders and be am member of Parliament, there are essentially lay people who have holy orders not just priests - and all are discriminated against.Bishops, priests and deacons - which are all essentially priests. They are certainly all members of the clergy.Every man in Holy Orders is either a deacon, priest or bishop. A monsignor, for instance, is a priest who has special recognition as a member of the papal household. An archbishop is a bishop in charge of a large or important diocese called an archdiocese. A cardinal is a special member of the papal household. Nearly all cardinals are bishops, but there are one or two cardinals who are priests, such as Avery Cardinal Dulles, are priests. The pope is the Bishop of Rome.
Only men can be ordained in the Sacrament of Holy Orders. The reasons are set forth in Pope John Paul II’s apostolic letter Ordinatio Sacerdotalis. It concludes, “I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church’s faithful.”
Back to the original point anyway, a Catholic can be PM, so long as they're not a bishop, a priest or a deacon.
Although you are right, a certain degree of discrimination against Catholics does exist in British law.
It is however, possible for a Catholic to become PM, provided they're not a bishop, priest or deacon.
I didn't ever deny that there is some very minor discrimination against Catholics in British law. I just pointed out two of the statements you made were untrue.
That a Catholic can become PM, which they can and that Catholics have had the right to vote for a lot more than a few decades. More like 200 years.
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