BF2S Forums Reducing Spawn Camping

I think that if this was in effect for every flag on the map then taking over capture points would be a complete pain in the ass. It's already pretty tough to fight off a wave of spawning enemies while trying to grey a flag, but what if all of these spawning enemies were completely invulnerable for 3 seconds after they spawned?! It would be horrible...

I would go for it ONLY if it was in effect on non-cap bases.

So true,

this would be a deffinate improvment to the gameplay, and I agree with the take all you can get and nothing less,  and like you said "it is war" 

lol

anyway  sorry about the connection speed (i get T-1 :cool )

and good luck ...

I have played alot of FPS games competitively over the years and in my opinion the spawn killing in BF2 is not that big of an issue. I also adhere to the mentality that this is a war game, and the user should be able to utilize any gameplay techniques available to them to gain an advantage over the opponent, including spawn camping. I will spawn camp when the opportunity presents itself, and i readily accept that i will have to prepare to defend myself against spawn campers when the enemy has the opportunity.

Spawn camping in the majority of the FPS games ive played is often a much more devastating technique to use against the enemy and is significantly harder to survive as a spawner. In many games a spawn killer can simply target a specific corner of a room and click when the fresh meat appears. This is almost always not the case in BF2.

The enormous scale of the BF2 maps and the variety of kits available to the spawner makes 99.9% of all spawns survivable. If you get spawn killed at a specific flag, respawn at the closest safe area with the kit most effective against the spawn killer. You spawn at Flag A and immediately get killed by a tank? Spawn at Flag B as anti-tank and hit him in the treads. Open up the squad menu and find a surviving squad leader near the spawn killer to respawn on and C4 his ass. Getting Spawn killed by a chopper? Spawn at the nearest jeep w/50cal, speed your ass over there, and tear the spawn killer up. Work on your eryx/saw skills and guide a missle into the pilots dome. Etcetera.

Too many times i see a group of nubs get spawn killed by armor, And then all continue to respawn at the same spot as sniper or medic or some crap and then complain about tank whores and wonder why they die over and over. Three of you got spawn killed? OMG cry , Three of you respawn as anti-tank, turn and fire missle, problem solved.

Ive experienced all kinds of spawn killing in BF2, on both sides of the gun, and theres only one circumstance that i feel needs balancing. Just in front of the first flag in karkand, nubs can aim their APC's and Tanks down the alley and rain down fiery spawn killing death with incredible ease. I will admit that i have done such things in my early n00b days of BF2 gaming, but i soon found that not only was it quite gay, but i could get better scores playing a well rounded game not concentrating on a particular spawn.

But this specific event is a problem in the level design of karkand. Not the gameplay itself. I do not see the need for an added invulnerability time.  Every last other possible spawn point in the game i will quickly find a way to spawn and eliminate the spawn killer.

First off. jools try not to make a reply nothing more than an invite to be flamed. This is a rather sedate discussion... don't be the tool that makes it a flaming argument.

As to the discussion of protection upon spawning I think its a rather good idea. In alternative to immunity for # seconds or an increase of HP or the fade in method I offer this alternative.

Increase the armor of the individual to 75%. Using the reference point of the armor of an Assault kit is about 25% for example. No I do not know the exact armor points or rating of Assault, this is just to use as an example.

So at spawn the soldier now has a beefed up amount of armor so people can still kill the soldier but it takes quite a bit more to do so. This gives the soldier about 3 secs or so to react with added protection before it goes back to normal. Of course any damage taken still remains.

I also see spawnkilling at a uncap base as sort of a punishment for horrible offense AND defense for a team. For instance, on a map like karkand, it would demand EVEN MORE skill from MEC. Not only can they not let a base be capped (for the ticket depletion), they can't start spawn camping when USMC's defenses are down. And from what I've seen, the ticket depletion on karkand is pretty critical.

AFlyingNun wrote:

[snip]1. Destroys some of the realism of the game. Yes, sometimes soldiers are sent into impossible situations and they die quick.[snip]

Yeah, the realism of the game. Engineers carrying 5 AT mines (5x15Kg=75Kg). Support loaded with 40+Kg of equipment jumping X times in a  row. Snipers scope-shooting while side-rolling on the ground. M95 hitting you in the chest WITHOUT killing you instantly. Spec-Ops throwing C4 packs at insane distances. APCs still moving after an anti-tank just hit their wheels. Ah, the realism!

Reality is no game. And games aren't real.

Last edited by jools (2005-12-06 05:24:53)

Let me put it this way...

You don't die in one shot from an M95, or run out of ammo as a support, because people like it that way. People like not being spawn camped too, but isn't a game supposed to have bad and hard parts, too? What fun would it be if every bad part of the game got taken out, where's the challenge?  It's like when someone uses cheat codes to unlock something, then gets obsessed with the codes, then by the time they're done using them all, they realize it would've been more fun to play without them.

I expected to see a lot of responses to the effect of "shit happens," or that the team being spawn killed deserves it if they can't properly defend themselves or mount an effective attack. However, spawn killing punishes individuals who aren't responsible for their team's idiocy and lack of competence. Often I will have the highest score on the server with ridiculous kills and flag captures and my team will still lose because they are simply morons. Players who play well shouldn't be punished for the idiotic mistakes of their teammates.

Often, spawn killing also occurs at either an uncappable base or the last remaining base for the team leaving no alternative spawn location for someone who would wish to avoid being spawn killed such as OMGEliteGaming suggested. I rarely get spawn killed; like I said, I'm usually the one on the other side taking advantage of the situation. However, when it does happen it's usually when I first join a server that is either full or has autobalance on and I get stuck with the team that has only one cappable flag that is pinned down. Like being put on MEC on Karkand and only having the train accident base or coming in as USMC on Sharqi and only having the construction yard. In many cases, it's very possible to break out of these scenarios and cap another base, but sometimes the odds are against you 50 to 1 and you die instantly every spawn from arty, armor, helicopters, or dozens of small arms fire directed at your spawn location. Should I get punished for being put on the losing team when joining the server? Obviously, everyone ends up on the losing team at some point, but if I am put in that situation then I at least want a greater than 1% chance to turn the situation around for myself even if I can't do anything for my team at that point.

Also RGB|Apocalypse said that the spawn points seem completely random. Well, it may seem that way but they aren't entirely random. If you ever mess around with the BF2 level editor and look at the spawn points you can see how they work. Basically, in the level editor you insert a flag, then you insert several other soldier insertion points that are connected to that flag. One flag might have anywhere between 2-6 insertion points for soldiers. Most only have about 3. If you know where those insertion points are then it's possible to completely pin a flag down, especially if it's the last flag the enemy team occupies. I remember once on Gulf of Oman at one of the beach flags (center beach I think) my friends and I were in a squad and surrounded what was the USMC's last flag not on the carrier. Rather than taking the flag we simply staked out the 3 insertion points that we knew soldiers could come in at. As soon as the rest of our team killed the remaining stragglers around the map, we began instantly killing anyone who spawned in at the center beach because we were all positioned directly in front of the flag's insertion points. After racking up about 12 kills each the other team started figuring out what was going on and came in at the Carrier instead. It's also possible to actually stand on the insertion points and prevent people from spawning in at all. If anyone has ever seen the white dot on the spawn selection map turn red, it means that there is already someone standing at all of the insertion points, and therefore you can't spawn in until someone moves. Typically, this is an indication that several of your allies have just spawned in and haven't moved yet, but if you know exactly where the insertion points are it's possible to prevent the enemy from spawning in at all if you and your allies stand on all of the insertion points. Or you have your friends stand on all insertion points except one and totally mow down anyone who comes through that single insertion point. Technically, this isn't hacking or cheating since the game physically allows it, but I would consider this exploitation and poor sportsmanship.

Anyway, I would gladly forfeit the advantage I have over other players in the context of spawn killing if it made the game more enjoyable for everyone and gave each player a fair chance to survive being spawned. Yes, shit happens, but this is game and it should be balanced (not necessarily equal opportunity in every situation but at least balanced) and fun.

What about 6 well covered or far away positioned spawnpoints at each flag? No spawning on open field instead spawning somewhere hidden. The enemy shall not see you when spawned.

Call me a spawn-camper.  I dont really care, but this idea is horrible.  Oh man, I cant spend enough time on this subject.  Christ, I hope this change is not implimented.

blacksheepcannibal wrote:

A temp invun phase would, however, easily disrupt Base Raping, which i consider a legitimate strategy.

It sounds like you haven't read my second post in this thread. Even with a brief 2 second immunity period it would not disrupt how attack forces takes bases as long as a player with the immunity period did not effect the turning of the flag.

I think base raping as you describe it is acceptable, albeit not very sportsman-like. However, many times a team will have only one spawn point on the entire map that they can choose to spawn from and many experienced players including myself know exactly where the insertion points are for most of the flags in the game. I garuantee that if someone is intent on taking the last base occupied by the enemy and if they know where the insertion points are that the players spawning in will have no more than 0.1 seconds before they're killed. Arty compounds the situation.

As to your suggestion about having the game randomly select different insertion points for each flag; well the game already does this, sort of. Each flag has about 3-6 insertion points that it randomly selects from to spawn players at. As already mentioned it's possible to determine where these insertion points are. Now it seems that a simple fix would be to have the game not use fixed insertion points but randomly generate a vector from the flag with a random distance range that does not intersect with world geometry. However, even this approach has drawbacks because it could randomly spawn you in the middle of a field with the closest cover more than 6 seconds sprint distance away.

Killing people who are instantly spawned in and have no clue about their surroundings is a cheap talentless tactic that should have game design measures employed to prevent it. I simply believe that a 2 second immunity period is the best way to tackle the problem.

Last edited by LG-MindBullets (2005-12-06 14:07:54)

*looks at topic title* Yes, please .
I second that the 3-second rule would only apply for uncap. bases.
It would be horrible if the 3-second rule would count for normal cap.flags.