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- Islam not spread by the sword (Intresting read)
Yes it is ignorant.rawls2 wrote:
Muslims are the enemies of Christians and vice versa. That is not an ignorrant statement, may be unpopular but it is the reality.
Yeah, can't quite find the kill all christians part.Qur'an wrote:
And do not dispute with the followers of the Book except by what is best, except those of them who act unjustly, and say: We believe in that which has been revealed to us and revealed to you, and our God and your God is One, and to Him do we submit.
Pre-fucking-ciselyvedds wrote:
Terrorists CAN use the Koran to justify their actions because of the content, Mohammed was a warrior, He killed people. Jesus was not. A Christian can never turn to an example of Jesus killing anyone and transliterate that to a current circumstance. However the Hadiths do detail Mohammed waging war, a radical muslim can take verses from the Koran and convince themselves that God wants them to Kill in his name, not neccesarily because this is the intent but because of the nature of the Islamic Prophet. The New Testament does not contain an equivalent of Jesus advocating or partaking in a killing. A radical Christian who kills because they think that is what god wants, cannot console themselves that Jesus ever did so, or advocated killing. They are acting categorically against the teachings of their prophet.That is a fundamental difference between the religions.
Hmmm... The author has some intresting things to say.. And he does make a good case against the pope (not that hard to do), but at the same time he IGNORES the responsibility of the jews in the current situation in Israel, alestine and the Midedle east in general.
While NOT being an anti semite myself, you HAVE to remember that after 50 GENERATIONS (according to the author) of peacful harmony between the muslims and the Jes, the jews BACKSTABBED the muslim world, by taking BY FORCE what is today israel.
I know the story goes that "israel was created for the jews after the war", "we owe them....", "bla bla bla". All of this is bogus, and every historian, and every jew knows this. After the world war, the jewish (soldiers in particular) in "the promised lands" REFUSED to leave once the war ended. This turned into a "minor war", which in the end lead to the creation of the jewish state (Israel). Yes, they got recognition eventually, but noone GAVE them the lands to begin with, they TOOK it. and thus by this act of backstabbing their "hosts" the muslims, they started down a road that has lead them to where they are today.
Now imagine that for 50 YEARS, your brother had been beaten by bullies at school, cheated and taunted by adults his whole life. Persecuted to the extent where he was unable to buy a loaf of bread at the local bakery. For those 50 years, YOU his brother had to help him and support him and do things for him. However, when you were both kids you were in love with the same girl, however, she married you eventually. And after 50 years of your protection, your brother puts a knife in your back and steals your wife.... Now personally, that would piss me off IMMENSELY !
I have no problem understanding how the muslim world sees itself as being betrayed. I may have some issues with how a minority goes about expressing that attitude, but I DO understand. So take THAT into account when reading the authors "story".
While NOT being an anti semite myself, you HAVE to remember that after 50 GENERATIONS (according to the author) of peacful harmony between the muslims and the Jes, the jews BACKSTABBED the muslim world, by taking BY FORCE what is today israel.
I know the story goes that "israel was created for the jews after the war", "we owe them....", "bla bla bla". All of this is bogus, and every historian, and every jew knows this. After the world war, the jewish (soldiers in particular) in "the promised lands" REFUSED to leave once the war ended. This turned into a "minor war", which in the end lead to the creation of the jewish state (Israel). Yes, they got recognition eventually, but noone GAVE them the lands to begin with, they TOOK it. and thus by this act of backstabbing their "hosts" the muslims, they started down a road that has lead them to where they are today.
Now imagine that for 50 YEARS, your brother had been beaten by bullies at school, cheated and taunted by adults his whole life. Persecuted to the extent where he was unable to buy a loaf of bread at the local bakery. For those 50 years, YOU his brother had to help him and support him and do things for him. However, when you were both kids you were in love with the same girl, however, she married you eventually. And after 50 years of your protection, your brother puts a knife in your back and steals your wife.... Now personally, that would piss me off IMMENSELY !
I have no problem understanding how the muslim world sees itself as being betrayed. I may have some issues with how a minority goes about expressing that attitude, but I DO understand. So take THAT into account when reading the authors "story".
I have a question for you before i will give some examples. Do you think that what happens in some part of the world where you have fanatics who uses the religion in their way is it because of ISLAM ?vedds wrote:
bogo24dk wrote:
Vedds and what does 009.004 say ? And when you have read the 009.004 link it with 005 .I dont see how that alters the message of 9.5........Koran wrote:
[9.4] Except those of the idolaters with whom you made an agreement, then they have not failed you in anything and have not backed up any one against you, so fulfill their agreement to the end of their term; surely Allah loves those who are careful (of their duty).
[9.5] So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.I'm sorry but if that was meant to convince me that Islam has never been "spread by the sword" it didnt serve its purpose. What I could make is a direction not to kill the innocent, admirable, however I failed to note a definition of the innocent. Is an idolator considered an innocent? What if he has not heard the word of Islam? What if he has, but chooses to ignore it? What if he has brokered no agreement with the believers? What if his agreement had ended and the duty of the believers has been discharged, Would they then have to repent, pray and pay a tax? Will they then still recieve the mercy of Allah if they don't?bogo24dk wrote:
And then you can find some more anwsers here .
Misconception 7
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/notislam/mi … l#HEADING3
Now i'm not an expert on the Koran by any means, I have read very little of it ( working on that slowly) but if anything this backs up my original point. It is possible to justify forced conversion from the Koran.Interestingly this was the phrase used at the start of the Centani-Wiig conversion video.Koran wrote:
[2.256] There is no compulsion in religion; truly the right way has become clearly distinct from error; therefore, whoever disbelieves in the Shaitan and believes in Allah he indeed has laid hold on the firmest handle, which shall not break off, and Allah is Hearing, Knowing.
Its a great point, basically the true path is clear and if you convert it is because you have "seen the light" so to speak, whereas those who choose to not convert are embracing "shaitan" and are no longer "the innocent" ergo they are not protected. The logic is that they(any unbeliever) chooses to convert, not because of the sabre poised above their neck and the certain death that will follow, but, because the rightious path has made itself clear. Therefore they have not been forced, as it is impossible to convert via coercion. As
opposed to taking that statement at face value - as described in misconception 7.
Dude... Ask a more telling and unnerving question.. Try with: "Do you think that ISLAM is the only religion to have fanatics and fundamentalists ?"bogo24dk wrote:
I have a question for you before i will give some examples. Do you think that what happens in some part of the world where you have fanatics who uses the religion in their way is it because of ISLAM ?
Anyone saying "yes" shows off as being stupid and ignorant, so you needn't spend any more time arguing with them. Anyone saying "no", are smart enough to have heard of people like the knights templar, the Ku Klux Klan etc. etc. And anyone saying "I dont know", THEM you can argue with !
Wow jumping to conclusion to fast. You should wait for his answer then my answer before you think i am of one of those closed minded who prefer to see things in black and white.Twist wrote:
Dude... Ask a more telling and unnerving question.. Try with: "Do you think that ISLAM is the only religion to have fanatics and fundamentalists ?"bogo24dk wrote:
I have a question for you before i will give some examples. Do you think that what happens in some part of the world where you have fanatics who uses the religion in their way is it because of ISLAM ?
Anyone saying "yes" shows off as being stupid and ignorant, so you needn't spend any more time arguing with them. Anyone saying "no", are smart enough to have heard of people like the knights templar, the Ku Klux Klan etc. etc. And anyone saying "I dont know", THEM you can argue with !
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/bened … rg_en.htmlkr@cker wrote:
I'd still like to see the entire transcript of the pope's speech, as I understand it he was bringing it up as a matter of debate just as this author has, kinda like when the Harvard president brought up the "women and men are psychologically different" subject (and it's just asinine to deny our brains are wired different) and got crucified once it was portrayed as him saying "women are dumber than men"
Unfortunatly its not that clear cut. Christians and Muslims aren't enemies in the traditional sense of lining up two opposing sites and fighting a war, however, they are somewhat conflicting ideologies and there are parties on both sides that wish for the total anihilation of the "enemy". But, I dont think thats ever been any different. Conflict is a part of human nature. The problem I see is that there is more exposure to the other side and ergo more conflict these days, I see this situation as helping the "radicals" in both camps to recruit the general polulace to their way of thinking..Jonsimon wrote:
Muslims and christians are not enemies. Muslims were once (think middle ages) the enemies of christians. Christians may have been the enemies of some small factions of muslims. But now, neither is the enemy of the other.
One thing I would like some clarification on is the status of Jesus in Islam. I understand that he is the 2nd of 3 Prophets(I think) and that Mohammed is the final Prophet. However according to the Bible Jesus claimed to be the "son of God", Is there not a paradox for Muslims? How could the second Prophet claim to be the son of god If he were not. Surely a liar cannot be a Prophet? What of the Resurrection? Please note I am genuinely interested in the interpretation & this is not meant as a challenge.
Yes and No.bogo24dk wrote:
I have a question for you before i will give some examples. Do you think that what happens in some part of the world where you have fanatics who uses the religion in their way is it because of ISLAM ?
I have absolutely no doubt that Islam inspires killings(whether that is trough misinterpretation is irrelevant). However I also have no doubt that it is also a convienient excuse for some who simply want to wreak havoc. I am also certain that moderate Muslims do not do enough to combat the Radicals (examples are Madrassa where chidren are indoctrinated with anti-western sentiment. There are plenty in Pakistan apparently.) As I said before, I believe it is the nature of Mohammed that creates this scenario, along with the somewhat less organised nature of Islam. The Position of the Catholic Church, for example, is clear because of the strict hierachy in place that mandates the churches position. This scenario is what has led to a questioning of the churches actions in the past (E.G.the Inquisition) and also allows the leadership to mark down clearly the position of the Catholic church.(it is important that you note i used "Catholic") many other Christian groups have similar organisations to set the "rules" globally. Now, I am the first to admit that my knowledge of Islam is sketchy, But I understand that there is not as strict a structure around the position of the different groups within Islam, for Example Religious edicts(the infamous Fatwa) can be issued by an untold number of people at any time. It is this nature that can leave the door wide open for people to believe that they are truly fulfilling God's wishes by killing someone.(I am using God & Allah interchangably for brevities sake) Now I am aware that there are people of every other religion with exactly the same mindset, However, There are more of them in Islam than Christianity & it is the nature of Islam & Mohammed that leads to this.
Slightly off topic but there is a song by Roger waters that sums this phenomena up well. What God Wants P1
I think its an interesting commentary on the human desire to confer divine approval on their own desires.
I dont think that is really poigniant, Particularly given that I have made it clear that I feel that neither side is blameless. I took from that question that he was interested in the perspective I was starting from, rather than whether he "can argue with !" me.Twist wrote:
Dude... Ask a more telling and unnerving question.. Try with: "Do you think that ISLAM is the only religion to have fanatics and fundamentalists ?"
Anyone saying "yes" shows off as being stupid and ignorant, so you needn't spend any more time arguing with them. Anyone saying "no", are smart enough to have heard of people like the knights templar, the Ku Klux Klan etc. etc. And anyone saying "I dont know", THEM you can argue with !
Terrorist
Vedds you are unclear on some issues. How you write dosen't give me a definite anwser on what your stand point is. But let me anwser on some things you have written and i have understood.Yes and No.
I have absolutely no doubt that Islam inspires killings(whether that is trough misinterpretation is irrelevant). However I also have no doubt that it is also a convienient excuse for some who simply want to wreak havoc. I am also certain that moderate Muslims do not do enough to combat the Radicals (examples are Madrassa where chidren are indoctrinated with anti-western sentiment. There are plenty in Pakistan apparently.) As I said before, I believe it is the nature of Mohammed that creates this scenario, along with the somewhat less organised nature of Islam. The Position of the Catholic Church, for example, is clear because of the strict hierachy in place that mandates the churches position. This scenario is what has led to a questioning of the churches actions in the past (E.G.the Inquisition) and also allows the leadership to mark down clearly the position of the Catholic church.(it is important that you note i used "Catholic") many other Christian groups have similar organisations to set the "rules" globally. Now, I am the first to admit that my knowledge of Islam is sketchy, But I understand that there is not as strict a structure around the position of the different groups within Islam, for Example Religious edicts(the infamous Fatwa) can be issued by an untold number of people at any time. It is this nature that can leave the door wide open for people to believe that they are truly fulfilling God's wishes by killing someone.(I am using God & Allah interchangably for brevities sake) Now I am aware that there are people of every other religion with exactly the same mindset, However, There are more of them in Islam than Christianity & it is the nature of Islam & Mohammed that leads to this.
Slightly off topic but there is a song by Roger waters that sums this phenomena up well. What God Wants P1
I think its an interesting commentary on the human desire to confer divine approval on their own desires.
1. I have absolutely no doubt that Islam inspires killings
Maybe it does maybe it dosen't the thing with religion is interpeted by everyone diffrent. But have you asked yourself if the Christian bible does the same or torah ?
Kill People Who Don't Listen to Priests
Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)
Kill Witches
You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)
Kill Homosexuals
"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)
Kill Fortunetellers
A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)
Death for Hitting Dad
Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)
Death for Cursing Parents
1) If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness. (Proverbs 20:20 NAB)
2) All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)
Death for Adultery
If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)
Death for Fornication
A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)
Death to Followers of Other Religions
Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)
Kill Nonbelievers
They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)
Kill False Prophets
If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)
Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God
Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)
Kill Women Who Are Not Virgins On Their Wedding Night
But if this charge is true (that she wasn't a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst. (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB)
Kill Followers of Other Religions.
1) If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)
2) Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden. When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death. (Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT)
Death for Blasphemy
One day a man who had an Israelite mother and an Egyptian father got into a fight with one of the Israelite men. During the fight, this son of an Israelite woman blasphemed the LORD's name. So the man was brought to Moses for judgment. His mother's name was Shelomith. She was the daughter of Dibri of the tribe of Dan. They put the man in custody until the LORD's will in the matter should become clear. Then the LORD said to Moses, "Take the blasphemer outside the camp, and tell all those who heard him to lay their hands on his head. Then let the entire community stone him to death. Say to the people of Israel: Those who blaspheme God will suffer the consequences of their guilt and be punished. Anyone who blasphemes the LORD's name must be stoned to death by the whole community of Israel. Any Israelite or foreigner among you who blasphemes the LORD's name will surely die. (Leviticus 24:10-16 NLT)
Kill False Prophets
1) Suppose there are prophets among you, or those who have dreams about the future, and they promise you signs or miracles, and the predicted signs or miracles take place. If the prophets then say, 'Come, let us worship the gods of foreign nations,' do not listen to them. The LORD your God is testing you to see if you love him with all your heart and soul. Serve only the LORD your God and fear him alone. Obey his commands, listen to his voice, and cling to him. The false prophets or dreamers who try to lead you astray must be put to death, for they encourage rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of slavery in the land of Egypt. Since they try to keep you from following the LORD your God, you must execute them to remove the evil from among you. (Deuteronomy 13:1-5 NLT)
2) But any prophet who claims to give a message from another god or who falsely claims to speak for me must die.' You may wonder, 'How will we know whether the prophecy is from the LORD or not?' If the prophet predicts something in the LORD's name and it does not happen, the LORD did not give the message. That prophet has spoken on his own and need not be feared. (Deuteronomy 18:20-22 NLT)
Infidels and Gays Should Die
So God let them go ahead and do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other's bodies. Instead of believing what they knew was the truth about God, they deliberately chose to believe lies. So they worshiped the things God made but not the Creator himself, who is to be praised forever. Amen. That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. And the men, instead of having normal sexual relationships with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men and, as a result, suffered within themselves the penalty they so richly deserved. When they refused to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their evil minds and let them do things that should never be done. Their lives became full of every kind of wickedness, sin, greed, hate, envy, murder, fighting, deception, malicious behavior, and gossip. They are backstabbers, haters of God, insolent, proud, and boastful. They are forever inventing new ways of sinning and are disobedient to their parents. They refuse to understand, break their promises, and are heartless and unforgiving. They are fully aware of God's death penalty for those who do these things, yet they go right ahead and do them anyway. And, worse yet, they encourage others to do them, too. (Romans 1:24-32 NLT)
Kill Anyone who Approaches the Tabernacle
For the LORD had said to Moses, 'Exempt the tribe of Levi from the census; do not include them when you count the rest of the Israelites. You must put the Levites in charge of the Tabernacle of the Covenant, along with its furnishings and equipment. They must carry the Tabernacle and its equipment as you travel, and they must care for it and camp around it. Whenever the Tabernacle is moved, the Levites will take it down and set it up again. Anyone else who goes too near the Tabernacle will be executed.' (Numbers 1:48-51 NLT)
Kill People for Working on the Sabbath
The LORD then gave these further instructions to Moses: 'Tell the people of Israel to keep my Sabbath day, for the Sabbath is a sign of the covenant between me and you forever. It helps you to remember that I am the LORD, who makes you holy. Yes, keep the Sabbath day, for it is holy. Anyone who desecrates it must die; anyone who works on that day will be cut off from the community. Work six days only, but the seventh day must be a day of total rest. I repeat: Because the LORD considers it a holy day, anyone who works on the Sabbath must be put to death.' (Exodus 31:12-15 NLT)
And for you example you have one of the biggest Dictator in history to justify his killings. That was Hitler :Torah
The following is a very SHORT list of sadistic acts that are commanded, allowed, or threatened by God and his “righteous” men. All of these verses can be found in the Torah. (which are the first five books of the Bible.) I have put them in chronological order so that you may verify them as you read along. (Keep in mind that the scriptures literally have an atrocity on every other page. So this list will keep evolving as I work through the Pentateuch yet again. To compile a full list may take months, so feel free to check back in later.) God entraps humans by placing the tree of knowledge in the garden and telling Adam and Eve not to eat of it. This is rather similar to placing a toy in front of a child and telling them they are not allowed to play with it. God created us with instinct, rebellion, and curiosity. Soon he punishes us for only doing what is part of our nature. Genesis 2:16.47
God now commands that all women must have health hazardous labors for Eve ate the fruit. In no way shape or form is it just that I must pay for the sins of my ancestors. Genesis 3:16
God caused sibling rivalry by favoring Abel over Cain, with absolutely no attempt at justification. This act of favoritism led to Abel’s death. Genesis 4:3-5
Genesis 7:23 He killed, intentionally, every man, woman, and child on the planet save eight of them.
God commands Hagar go back into servanthood and bear children for her master though she does not want to. Genesis 16:7-9
Genesis 19:23-25 God burns down a whole city (women and children included) simply because they were supposedly homosexual.
Er, Judah’s firstborn, was wicked in the sight of the Lord; and that the Lord slew him. How was Er wicked? The Bible doesn’t give us this bit of information, only that Er was wicked in the sight of the Lord. Genesis 38:7
Genesis 38:10 God murders Onan for refusing to commit incest with his sister in law.
Exodus 12:29 God repeatedly tells Moses exactly what calamity he will next visit upon the Egyptians if the Pharaoh does not allow the Israelites to be set free from slavery. Then he tells Moses (also repeatedly) that he will harden Pharaoh’s heart, so that he will refuse to allow the Israelites to go, thus bringing a calamity upon his own people, as well as showing him the awesome power of the Israelites’ Lord. This occurs over and over, bringing calamity upon calamity upon the Egyptian people. What is troubling about this verse is that when god “hardens the pharaoh’s heart” he is interfering with the Pharaoh’s free will and ultimately bringing punishment on the Egyptians for something they are not responsible for. As a final punishment god decides to kill all the first born of Egypt. The lord reduced himself to murdering innocent kids when he could have simply freed the Israelites himself with his “omnipotent” power.
God punishes children for the sins of their fathers, unto the third and fourth generations. Punishing a child for the sins of their ancestors is not very just. Exodus 20:5&34:7
God endorses slavery. He even set up laws as to how slavery was to be carried out, and goes as far as Okaying beating them. Exodus 21:2-6
God sanctioned the selling of ones daughter. How can any being tell another to literally sell their child into slavery? Disgusting! Exodus 21:7
Exodus 22:18 God orders the death of witches, sorceresses and anyone who practices magic. Sadly enough, this verse was justification for the Inquisition.
Exodus 32:27 God ordered to be killed, 3,000 Israelites for no greater crime than worshipping a golden calf. I don’t know about you but death is a pretty harsh fucking punishment.
Leviticus 20:9-10 God commands death for cursing out ones parents and death for adultery. Gee, with these types of laws the population should be almost nil by now.
Once again god is a homophobe, or at the very least, a bigot. Leviticus 20:13
Handicapped people must not approach the altar. Leviticus 21:16-23
Leviticus 26:30 “And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shill ye eat.”
Leviticus 27:28-29 God ordered and allowed human sacrifices.
Numbers 16:27 God buries alive Korah and his family.
Numbers 16:35 God killed 250 Levite princes who disagreed with Moses’ leadership. He was so bloodthirsty that he wanted to slay more until he was talked out of it. Later he put a plague upon 14,700 Jews who thought there was something wrong in killing 250 princes.
Numbers 21:1-3 God utterly destroyed the Canaanites at Hormah as a favor to the Jews.
Numbers 21:27-35 God abetted Moses in utterly destroying the Amorites at Heshbon - “…the men, the women, and the little ones.”
Numbers 31:17-18 God commands Moses to kill all the Medianite people including children and women. To top it off he commands that the virgins be saved for later raping by Moses’ soldiers.
Deuteronomy 3:3-7 God ordered Moses’ army to “utterly destroy” 60 cities, killing all the women and children within!
Deuteronomy 7:12 God ordered the Israelites to kill all the people of seven nations. He even adds, “show no mercy unto them”.
Deuteronomy 20:16 God orders that we kill everything that breathes in the cities that he gives us for an inheritance
A bastard can’t attend church “even to his tenth generation.” As if denying an innocent child rights to worship isn’t cruel. Deuteronomy 23:2
http://www.evilbible.com/hitler_was_christian.htm
Now if you ask me if it is religion that is the guilty part here. I will say no, i will blame it on the human kind. We have justifyed mass killings in our history. Slavery and the ethnic cleansning of the american natives was done in the name of God. The main reason was that they where infedels.
I will stop here. But please when you give me an explanation to what your viewpoints are make it clear.
as I've stated many times before, it can be very simply put
Christianity/Judaism has evolved past that and when a few extremist do pop up they are put down very quickly by members of the same faith, this has yet to happen in Islam, and the hateful rhetoric and calls for Jihaad come from Islam's seat of power, it would be the equivalent of the pope himself calling for a return to the crusades (again, old news for christianity)
Most of what you cited were accounts of outright wars, keep in mind that if you read carefully the Israelites are described more as the Pharoah's Special Forces unit than slaves, all warfare at this time, no matter what religion, was hideously cruel. When you look up these verses make sure you read the rest for the appropriate context, while I no longer have any use for the Christian faith, I still love the bible for it's war accounts, and it is one of the best romance novels on the market, having been raised heavily in the church I do know that many of these are easy to misinterpret. There is also the matter of the new testament, and the evolution of Christianity into a warmer, fuzzier faith.
in short, it's not christianity's ugly past that concerns me, just Islam's ugly present
Christianity/Judaism has evolved past that and when a few extremist do pop up they are put down very quickly by members of the same faith, this has yet to happen in Islam, and the hateful rhetoric and calls for Jihaad come from Islam's seat of power, it would be the equivalent of the pope himself calling for a return to the crusades (again, old news for christianity)
Most of what you cited were accounts of outright wars, keep in mind that if you read carefully the Israelites are described more as the Pharoah's Special Forces unit than slaves, all warfare at this time, no matter what religion, was hideously cruel. When you look up these verses make sure you read the rest for the appropriate context, while I no longer have any use for the Christian faith, I still love the bible for it's war accounts, and it is one of the best romance novels on the market, having been raised heavily in the church I do know that many of these are easy to misinterpret. There is also the matter of the new testament, and the evolution of Christianity into a warmer, fuzzier faith.
in short, it's not christianity's ugly past that concerns me, just Islam's ugly present
There you go bogo.... You're proving my point. It's NOT that islam is a "bad" religion. In point of fact, Islam is even more benign than judaism, christianity (though ALL of your quotes are from the OLD testament, so according to the "freaks", this was invalidated by the new teachings of jesus, the SAME teachings that by the way are a major part of the Quran), or most other western religions. In fact you can find these flaws in more or less ANY religion that has a written "bible". Why ? Because TIMES CHANGE. At one point in time, it might have been the smart thing to do to kill the weak, the infirm and the homosexuals, because of whatever reasoning there might have been behind it. At some point, it might have showed to be prudent to ALLOW your followers to have more than one wife (usually in order to repopulate faster after a war claming the lives of many men).
So it IS actually equally unfair to view Islam solely based on the "inherent flaws" in their written Quran, because the Tora and the Bible holds equally grumesome examples. However, as the Quran is somewhat NEWER than the other two, it DOES have the appeal of being a couple of centuries more modern !
The rason why I "wanted" you to rephrase was because you first of all was baiting. Second of all was showing undue prejudice in your stance, and finally because your question does not lead one to question the "correctness" of the originating statement that islam is not spread by the sword, thus furthering the disussion, but also leading it further away from the original intent.
I DO believe the original poster wanted us to be aware of certain historical "facts" (while totally ignoring others, but I've posted a longer statement about that earlier in this thread), and based on that show that historically Islam has not been a religion that imposes itself on others. There is no talk of right or wrong in that statement, only a curiosity that will lead to discussion of certain aspects of the religion, possibly digging out weird and old examples of the opposite being true.
My point here is that:
a) You were leading the discussion away from the original intent, and towards stuff that have a zillion threads already (terorism, and is islam an evil religion, and was the pope wrong), and doing so in a manner that does not befit your usual intelligent style.
b) You have valid points, and I agree with some of them, but again, it's a totally different discussion.
c) The original poster was flawed in the facts he showed off, as he only showed the parts that supported HIS views, for whatever reason.
d) As times change, so does the interpretation of the religious texts. This is religions equivalent of evolution.
So it IS actually equally unfair to view Islam solely based on the "inherent flaws" in their written Quran, because the Tora and the Bible holds equally grumesome examples. However, as the Quran is somewhat NEWER than the other two, it DOES have the appeal of being a couple of centuries more modern !
The rason why I "wanted" you to rephrase was because you first of all was baiting. Second of all was showing undue prejudice in your stance, and finally because your question does not lead one to question the "correctness" of the originating statement that islam is not spread by the sword, thus furthering the disussion, but also leading it further away from the original intent.
I DO believe the original poster wanted us to be aware of certain historical "facts" (while totally ignoring others, but I've posted a longer statement about that earlier in this thread), and based on that show that historically Islam has not been a religion that imposes itself on others. There is no talk of right or wrong in that statement, only a curiosity that will lead to discussion of certain aspects of the religion, possibly digging out weird and old examples of the opposite being true.
My point here is that:
a) You were leading the discussion away from the original intent, and towards stuff that have a zillion threads already (terorism, and is islam an evil religion, and was the pope wrong), and doing so in a manner that does not befit your usual intelligent style.
b) You have valid points, and I agree with some of them, but again, it's a totally different discussion.
c) The original poster was flawed in the facts he showed off, as he only showed the parts that supported HIS views, for whatever reason.
d) As times change, so does the interpretation of the religious texts. This is religions equivalent of evolution.
Twister first i have to tell you this. Wait before you attack someone. Try to see what they have to say and when you have enough evidence. Then bash the guy in the head with itTwist wrote:
There you go bogo.... You're proving my point. It's NOT that islam is a "bad" religion. In point of fact, Islam is even more benign than judaism, christianity (though ALL of your quotes are from the OLD testament, so according to the "freaks", this was invalidated by the new teachings of jesus, the SAME teachings that by the way are a major part of the Quran), or most other western religions. In fact you can find these flaws in more or less ANY religion that has a written "bible". Why ? Because TIMES CHANGE. At one point in time, it might have been the smart thing to do to kill the weak, the infirm and the homosexuals, because of whatever reasoning there might have been behind it. At some point, it might have showed to be prudent to ALLOW your followers to have more than one wife (usually in order to repopulate faster after a war claming the lives of many men).
So it IS actually equally unfair to view Islam solely based on the "inherent flaws" in their written Quran, because the Tora and the Bible holds equally grumesome examples. However, as the Quran is somewhat NEWER than the other two, it DOES have the appeal of being a couple of centuries more modern !
The rason why I "wanted" you to rephrase was because you first of all was baiting. Second of all was showing undue prejudice in your stance, and finally because your question does not lead one to question the "correctness" of the originating statement that islam is not spread by the sword, thus furthering the disussion, but also leading it further away from the original intent.
I DO believe the original poster wanted us to be aware of certain historical "facts" (while totally ignoring others, but I've posted a longer statement about that earlier in this thread), and based on that show that historically Islam has not been a religion that imposes itself on others. There is no talk of right or wrong in that statement, only a curiosity that will lead to discussion of certain aspects of the religion, possibly digging out weird and old examples of the opposite being true.
My point here is that:
a) You were leading the discussion away from the original intent, and towards stuff that have a zillion threads already (terorism, and is islam an evil religion, and was the pope wrong), and doing so in a manner that does not befit your usual intelligent style.
b) You have valid points, and I agree with some of them, but again, it's a totally different discussion.
c) The original poster was flawed in the facts he showed off, as he only showed the parts that supported HIS views, for whatever reason.
d) As times change, so does the interpretation of the religious texts. This is religions equivalent of evolution.
And secondly I posted these examples here about 2 religions that doesnt mean that Islam isn't as bad. I think all religion are equal. But who do i blame for killings and atrocities done in the name of religion.
I blame it on the human race. Ignorance, hate, greed, revenge these are something that drives the humans on this planet every day to kill each other, not religion.
For understanding fanatics, politics you name it. You have to understand some couple of things. One the human mentality, the environment where he was influenced and then you will understand why he does it.
Cause more then 95% of the humans on this planet are religious, and if really 95% read the religion as some fanatics do. Then we should have killed each other long before. I believe that humans needs a religion. For most if gives a meaning to the life and hope. We are weak and we need something to believe in.
Dude.. I'm not attacking you or anyone over this issue. Just read my last paragraph again. I'm not saying I disagree with you, I'm saying that the point is mood because it has no bearing on the topic, and you chose to attempt to "bait" your target, rather than determining his/her capability for independant thought.
Not to mention one of the chief differences is that Jesus is held up to be the son of God (allah) the same god. What is Muhammed? a prophet? a man... a ruler... a politician at some point really nothing more...He claimed to have the Quran dictated to him by God or Gods angels. He claimed to be the last prophet. There are a number of "different" translations of the Quran (just like there are of the bible) Also much of it depends on how you interpret things from the origional writings. Just remember no matter what... none of this was written by gods hand personally. A man wrote these things at various points in HUMAN history. We have believed odd things during our short history here. Hey at one point pretty much all of the civilized world thought the earth was flat.
Of course having many gods isnt much better... But Monotheism does seem to be the root of much of the worlds problems today.
Imagine there's no heaven... It's easy if you try...No hell below us... Above us only sky...
Of course having many gods isnt much better... But Monotheism does seem to be the root of much of the worlds problems today.
Imagine there's no heaven... It's easy if you try...No hell below us... Above us only sky...
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