Phrozenbot
Member
+632|7059|do not disturb

Lai wrote:

Phrozenbot wrote:

Paradise Lost? That's not Biblical. First, you need to know that Satan and a third of the angels (now called fallen angels or demons) fell before man and earth was created. Why was Satan cast out of heaven? It is a little uncertain, as the Bible is a little silent about it. All I know is that he was proud, and his pride must have led him to believe he deserved to be worshiped, and that he didn't have to worship God. Paul, one of the apostles, said he saw God him cast out like lightning. He wasn't casted out to hell, but out of heaven. Some say he was thrown to Earth, and others says the Abyss. I've also heard Tartarus, but I believe that is just a Greek translation for Gehenna (or maybe Final Hell), as Hades is Greek for Sheol.
Deserved to be worshipped by whom?

Was he aware that man would be created?

Obviously Satan could not have been thrown to earth if he fell before it was created.

On the Greek "translations", the Greek polytheistic concepts and that of the Tartarus predate any Biblical ones.
Like I said, the Bible is very silent about the issue. We can ask all sorts of questions about what Satan's role was in heaven, when he rebelled, how many demons fell, where they were sent when they fell, why some angels fell and the rest didn't and if they can still fall etc. The NT doesn't attempt to answer that, only to warn of who the enemy is and how he works, and even then there are some things that remain a mystery. It helps with the "faith" factor if you will.

And, as I said, he was cast out of Heaven, but no where does it say where, although the Abyss is a place where demons and other creatures have been locked up. And you're right, you can't be thrown down to Earth if it never existed, but man can't exist if earth didn't, and you're opinion was Satan felt humans were not worthy of living in Paradise. Well, man was created in the likeness of God, and the angles were not, so you can make an opinion on who is more worthy.

About the Greek translations. Yes I know, but what are the Greeks going to do, make a new word for a concept that already exists? Sheol = Hebrew for place of the dead, much like Hades, Gehenna = Hebrew for Hell, similar to Tartarus, although I think it's referred to once in some English translations. The Christian underworld has various different places, and hell is made up of a few.
t0mhank5
Member
+319|7155|Surge

Phrozenbot wrote:

Lai wrote:

Phrozenbot wrote:

Paradise Lost? That's not Biblical. First, you need to know that Satan and a third of the angels (now called fallen angels or demons) fell before man and earth was created. Why was Satan cast out of heaven? It is a little uncertain, as the Bible is a little silent about it. All I know is that he was proud, and his pride must have led him to believe he deserved to be worshiped, and that he didn't have to worship God. Paul, one of the apostles, said he saw God him cast out like lightning. He wasn't casted out to hell, but out of heaven. Some say he was thrown to Earth, and others says the Abyss. I've also heard Tartarus, but I believe that is just a Greek translation for Gehenna (or maybe Final Hell), as Hades is Greek for Sheol.
Deserved to be worshipped by whom?

Was he aware that man would be created?

Obviously Satan could not have been thrown to earth if he fell before it was created.

On the Greek "translations", the Greek polytheistic concepts and that of the Tartarus predate any Biblical ones.
Like I said, the Bible is very silent about the issue. We can ask all sorts of questions about what Satan's role was in heaven, when he rebelled, how many demons fell, where they were sent when they fell, why some angels fell and the rest didn't and if they can still fall etc. The NT doesn't attempt to answer that, only to warn of who the enemy is and how he works, and even then there are some things that remain a mystery. It helps with the "faith" factor if you will.

And, as I said, he was cast out of Heaven, but no where does it say where, although the Abyss is a place where demons and other creatures have been locked up. And you're right, you can't be thrown down to Earth if it never existed, but man can't exist if earth didn't, and you're opinion was Satan felt humans were not worthy of living in Paradise. Well, man was created in the likeness of God, and the angles were not, so you can make an opinion on who is more worthy.

About the Greek translations. Yes I know, but what are the Greeks going to do, make a new word for a concept that already exists? Sheol = Hebrew for place of the dead, much like Hades, Gehenna = Hebrew for Hell, similar to Tartarus, although I think it's referred to once in some English translations. The Christian underworld has various different places, and hell is made up of a few.
Oh, phrozen. Youre a real character.
Cougar
Banned
+1,962|7207|Dallas
Let me break it down for the heathens here:


Basically it works like this.  One day in heaven, God and Satan are sitting around just enjoying the afterlife, heaven and well, existence.  Suddenly Satan noticed that his chair wasn't quite as shiny as God's and decided to bring it up.  Satan said, "Dude, how come your chair is all bling bling and mine is as dull as the underside of a cooking pot?"  God said, "Because I'm God and your not.".  So the devil said "Well fuck you then, I'm gonna be God!".  Afterwards God said "Ohh yeah smart ass?  Have fun in this fiery hole.  Pwnt".
DRKillusion
Member
+10|6918|glued to my chair

^KoB^Buckles wrote:

Now, this is totally hypothetical. I'm an atheist but appreciate the religious views of others. Let's not flame people for their personal views and stick to the topic at hand. I talk about Satan here as a real being, irrespective of my personal views.

Now, Satan is the devil. Evil incarnate. Lucifer. And all sorts of other names. He runs hell as I'm sure everyone knows. But the question is this:

Can Satan REALLY be evil if he is the being that traps all the evil souls in hell? If he took good souls, THAT would be evil. But essentially he tortures the souls of evildoers, punishing them for their deeds in life. Without him doing this, would the evil sould remain on our plane of existance and wreak havoc (e.g. poulterguists)?



Discuss
i really dont think you have a clue on what you are talking about.
Ty
Mass Media Casualty
+2,398|7217|Noizyland

When missionarys first came to NZ to convert the maori they encountered a group who interpreted the bible in a diferent way. In "Paradise Lost" it's the Devil, (snake,) who is offering knowlege, (more or less,) while God is keeping it from Adam and Eve. This group of Maori thought that when Pakeha, (Europeans,) came they brought all this knowledge that had made their lives better. They saw God as the Devil for keeping knowlege from Adam and Eve and the Devil as God because he 'gave' knowlege to them. It's a very plausable connection to make really, but no doubt the Pakeha Missionary's sentiments were something along the lines of
"/fail"
[Blinking eyes thing]
Steam: http://steamcommunity.com/id/tzyon
Buckles
Cheeky Keen
+329|6999|Kent, UK

DRKillusion wrote:

^KoB^Buckles wrote:

Now, this is totally hypothetical. I'm an atheist but appreciate the religious views of others. Let's not flame people for their personal views and stick to the topic at hand. I talk about Satan here as a real being, irrespective of my personal views.

Now, Satan is the devil. Evil incarnate. Lucifer. And all sorts of other names. He runs hell as I'm sure everyone knows. But the question is this:

Can Satan REALLY be evil if he is the being that traps all the evil souls in hell? If he took good souls, THAT would be evil. But essentially he tortures the souls of evildoers, punishing them for their deeds in life. Without him doing this, would the evil sould remain on our plane of existance and wreak havoc (e.g. poulterguists)?



Discuss
i really dont think you have a clue on what you are talking about.
elaborate?
stef10
Member
+173|6925|Denmark
Actually I think Lucifer was thrown to earth at a pretty modern time. You guys say it was Lucifer who was at earth the time when Adam and Eve. I think I read that when he got thrown regular people saw this so I think about 2.500 years ago.
Bubbalo
The Lizzard
+541|7004
He doesn't take evil people.  He takes those that aren't Christian.
Lai
Member
+186|6594

Phrozenbot wrote:

About the Greek translations. Yes I know, but what are the Greeks going to do, make a new word for a concept that already exists? Sheol = Hebrew for place of the dead, much like Hades, Gehenna = Hebrew for Hell, similar to Tartarus, although I think it's referred to once in some English translations. The Christian underworld has various different places, and hell is made up of a few.
What I mean is that Tartarus shouldn't be regarded as a translation of the Hebrew Gehenna, but rather the other way around.
Roger Lesboules
Ah ben tabarnak!
+316|7020|Abitibi-Temiscamingue. Québec!

Bubbalo wrote:

He doesn't take evil people.  He takes those that aren't Christian.
Ah! If i believed all this religious crap...i would be in big trouble right now
Phrozenbot
Member
+632|7059|do not disturb

Lai wrote:

Phrozenbot wrote:

About the Greek translations. Yes I know, but what are the Greeks going to do, make a new word for a concept that already exists? Sheol = Hebrew for place of the dead, much like Hades, Gehenna = Hebrew for Hell, similar to Tartarus, although I think it's referred to once in some English translations. The Christian underworld has various different places, and hell is made up of a few.
What I mean is that Tartarus shouldn't be regarded as a translation of the Hebrew Gehenna, but rather the other way around.
Gehenna was a valley in Jerusalem where garbage was burnt, not a concept of fiery place of punishment, so it isn't a translation of Greek. Of course after newer revelations, it became associated with Hell in Hebrew.
The_Mac
Member
+96|6668

lavadisk wrote:

You don't know that for sure! YOU COULD BE GOING TO HELL! OGMOGMOGMGOMOG. Believe in jesus so ur sole is saved!
I'll believe this: you're a disrespectful idiot.
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6848|North Carolina

^KoB^Buckles wrote:

Now, this is totally hypothetical. I'm an atheist but appreciate the religious views of others. Let's not flame people for their personal views and stick to the topic at hand. I talk about Satan here as a real being, irrespective of my personal views.

Now, Satan is the devil. Evil incarnate. Lucifer. And all sorts of other names. He runs hell as I'm sure everyone knows. But the question is this:

Can Satan REALLY be evil if he is the being that traps all the evil souls in hell? If he took good souls, THAT would be evil. But essentially he tortures the souls of evildoers, punishing them for their deeds in life. Without him doing this, would the evil sould remain on our plane of existance and wreak havoc (e.g. poulterguists)?



Discuss
Good point...  I always have trouble understanding a story that involves a supposedly omniscient, omnipotent, and benevolent being that must be creating some beings that it knows beforehand will be evil.

People say that there is free will, but if God is omniscient, then he is effectively putting things into play that he intended to be evil.

For more on this topic, see this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trilemma

Epicurus or Carneades had the right idea.
S.Lythberg
Mastermind
+429|6890|Chicago, IL

Turquoise wrote:

^KoB^Buckles wrote:

Now, this is totally hypothetical. I'm an atheist but appreciate the religious views of others. Let's not flame people for their personal views and stick to the topic at hand. I talk about Satan here as a real being, irrespective of my personal views.

Now, Satan is the devil. Evil incarnate. Lucifer. And all sorts of other names. He runs hell as I'm sure everyone knows. But the question is this:

Can Satan REALLY be evil if he is the being that traps all the evil souls in hell? If he took good souls, THAT would be evil. But essentially he tortures the souls of evildoers, punishing them for their deeds in life. Without him doing this, would the evil sould remain on our plane of existance and wreak havoc (e.g. poulterguists)?



Discuss
Good point...  I always have trouble understanding a story that involves a supposedly omniscient, omnipotent, and benevolent being that must be creating some beings that it knows beforehand will be evil.

People say that there is free will, but if God is omniscient, then he is effectively putting things into play that he intended to be evil.

For more on this topic, see this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trilemma

Epicurus or Carneades had the right idea.
Perhaps god created earth for his own amusement...

and the devil was his way of making it more interesting.

Im sure no beginning and no end gets boring after a while.


Also, keep in mind that, at least in the old testament, god isn't that nice of a guy, just the most powerful guy in town.
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6848|North Carolina

S.Lythberg wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

^KoB^Buckles wrote:

Now, this is totally hypothetical. I'm an atheist but appreciate the religious views of others. Let's not flame people for their personal views and stick to the topic at hand. I talk about Satan here as a real being, irrespective of my personal views.

Now, Satan is the devil. Evil incarnate. Lucifer. And all sorts of other names. He runs hell as I'm sure everyone knows. But the question is this:

Can Satan REALLY be evil if he is the being that traps all the evil souls in hell? If he took good souls, THAT would be evil. But essentially he tortures the souls of evildoers, punishing them for their deeds in life. Without him doing this, would the evil sould remain on our plane of existance and wreak havoc (e.g. poulterguists)?



Discuss
Good point...  I always have trouble understanding a story that involves a supposedly omniscient, omnipotent, and benevolent being that must be creating some beings that it knows beforehand will be evil.

People say that there is free will, but if God is omniscient, then he is effectively putting things into play that he intended to be evil.

For more on this topic, see this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trilemma

Epicurus or Carneades had the right idea.
Perhaps god created earth for his own amusement...

and the devil was his way of making it more interesting.

Im sure no beginning and no end gets boring after a while.


Also, keep in mind that, at least in the old testament, god isn't that nice of a guy, just the most powerful guy in town.
If that's true, then we're so fucked....

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