BF2S Forums What would it take for you...

I would have to know Gods presence to be a believer.  I have no faith in God as taught by the Major Religions.

Now Alien Life to earth, I could jump on that bandwagon but not in the Hale Boop kinda way.

i'd need a actual god showing up to convince me to worship and that might not even convince me they are worthy of it.      I dont mind jesus. it's his fan club that drives me nuts.

win the lottery.

IRONCHEF wrote:

usmarine wrote:

Simple.  Stop having babies killed in microwaves for starters.  If you are "all powerful," then put a fucking stop to that shit.  I mean WTF.  That is part of your "plan?"  Well fuck your plan.  I am not going to worship something if part of their plan is to have a baby be born for couple months, then get fried in the microwave.  Oh and don't start with the "he gave people free will shit."  If people have free will and he cannot/does not control what is going on, then what the fuck are you worshiping?

So you think an all powerful God should stop ALL crimes, or just the microwaved baby crimes?  If God intervened in all things bad, maybe death so we'd all stay around forever, happy, in our little emo world..then what is the point?  And sometimes God does intervene..based on the faith of others, a unique plan that requires longevity for someone, something well beyond the wisdom you and I have.

Your rant shows that you have no belief in a world after this one, and it's a reasonably derived rant that many have "how could He let this happen."  And you answered it sort of when you mentioned free will.  If you understood what the purpose of this world was, then you'd understand how sacred our right to choose is.  We do all have the right to choose good or bad.  The blessings of choosing good are peace in this world and in the next..the choice to do bad causes us pain in this world and in the next.  The more of one over the other (karma as some would put it) will shape your soul and you will partially earn your judgment.  But if none of that mattered, if this life didn't progress to something else, then yes, it would seem heartless and tragic that a baby was killed because it would seem they have no chance at life or happiness.  But as it is, they do.  That brief, painful, dark mortal existence is NOTHING compared to the eternal nature of our soul.

I think what puts a nail in the coffin of your argument is that the aforementioned babies don't have any free will in determining if they live or die.  Free will only works as an argument when the people involved actually can make choices to help themselves.

Once you realize how a good portion of this life is beyond your control, you start to understand how death really is most likely to be the true end of each of our existences.  Aside from alien races that live far far away from us, we are truly alone in this world.  This is why we must live for the sake of living.  It's the experiences of life that make it worthwhile, and the fact that some of us are literally born to die shows just how precious the privileged lives we have in this country are.  We are lucky to be in the First World, but it isn't by the grace of God -- it's by sheer chance.

Turquoise wrote:

I think what puts a nail in the coffin of your argument is that the aforementioned babies don't have any free will in determining if they live or die.  Free will only works as an argument when the people involved actually can make choices to help themselves.

I think you may be understanding differently.  Free will applies to the killer when choosing to remove a life.  Like you said, the baby doesn't have that choice yet...and for that cause, there is doctrine protecting kids from sin until an age of accountability (8years). 

This is why murder nearly on top of the list of no-no's...because it deprives the free agency of another soul.  Rape/sexual sin, deprives the victim of agency by forcing them to be in fear...and fear of course is the opposite of free agency as it directs decision making without free choice.  (just examples)

And for what it's worth, we did live somewhere before we got here (this whole plan would have no meaning if we only had this mortal life and an afterlife).  In that world, we knew everything, we had been alive for ages and ages.  The "plan" was to experience mortality, as if a testing/proving ground for greater things to come (eternal life).  We all had the choice to do this mortal life (you, me, usmarine) or not.  A third of God's children chose not to.  We chose to go down.  We also knew that there'd be plenty of pain, anguish, suffering, and death.  We knew many would get lost, inflict pain, anguish, suffering, and death upon others.  BUT!!  (and here's my point I tried to make above) But, because this life is just a temporary flicker of time in our eternal existence (50, 75, 100 years, etc), and because it's by no means "the end of all things," such robbed agency (microwaving babies) doesn't end anything.  It serves the offender with some serious judgment when the time comes, and it serves the offended as a free pass onward.  Sure they'll lose their proving ground time, and if under the age of accountability..they got a free ticket to eternal life.

Anyway.  Sensitive subject not easily explained to those not inclined to believe, and it is quite advanced doctrine you don't hear every Sunday morning.  And it is true..I'll prove it some day.

Sgt.Gene wrote:

I believe there is a divine power.


However... not the god the bible depicts.


I am also a firm believer of evolution.

Ditto. Same here...sorta. I do believe the God in the Torah (I'm jewish) is the God that's there, though.

Last edited by Poseidon (2008-04-04 17:22:25)

usmarine wrote:

Hey IC.  That was the same crap I heard during my 12 years of catholic school, so no need to repeat it.

Catholic schools ftl, I did 10 years in that shit hole.

Lotta_Drool wrote:

I hope my wife never gets knocked up by a deity.  Joseph was pissed as hell, you know it.  How do you compete with almighty penis?

I always have a giggle at the idea of one of the world's biggest religions possibly being built on the lies of an adulterous wife.

"Joseph, you're not gonna believe this... "

Braddock wrote:

Lotta_Drool wrote:

I hope my wife never gets knocked up by a deity.  Joseph was pissed as hell, you know it.  How do you compete with almighty penis?

I always have a giggle at the idea of one of the world's biggest religions possibly being built on the lies of an adulterous wife.

"Joseph, you're not gonna believe this... "

"Virgin births" were certainly more common before the advent of modern medicine.    I wonder if they ever had "spontaneous STDs".

"Sorry, Kim...  I just woke up with herpes this morning.  I have no idea how I got it...."

Turquoise wrote:

IRONCHEF wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

I think what puts a nail in the coffin of your argument is that the aforementioned babies don't have any free will in determining if they live or die.  Free will only works as an argument when the people involved actually can make choices to help themselves.

I think you may be understanding differently.  Free will applies to the killer when choosing to remove a life.  Like you said, the baby doesn't have that choice yet...and for that cause, there is doctrine protecting kids from sin until an age of accountability (8years). 

This is why murder nearly on top of the list of no-no's...because it deprives the free agency of another soul.  Rape/sexual sin, deprives the victim of agency by forcing them to be in fear...and fear of course is the opposite of free agency as it directs decision making without free choice.  (just examples)

And for what it's worth, we did live somewhere before we got here (this whole plan would have no meaning if we only had this mortal life and an afterlife).  In that world, we knew everything, we had been alive for ages and ages.  The "plan" was to experience mortality, as if a testing/proving ground for greater things to come (eternal life).  We all had the choice to do this mortal life (you, me, usmarine) or not.  A third of God's children chose not to.  We chose to go down.  We also knew that there'd be plenty of pain, anguish, suffering, and death.  We knew many would get lost, inflict pain, anguish, suffering, and death upon others.  BUT!!  (and here's my point I tried to make above) But, because this life is just a temporary flicker of time in our eternal existence (50, 75, 100 years, etc), and because it's by no means "the end of all things," such robbed agency (microwaving babies) doesn't end anything.  It serves the offender with some serious judgment when the time comes, and it serves the offended as a free pass onward.  Sure they'll lose their proving ground time, and if under the age of accountability..they got a free ticket to eternal life.

Anyway.  Sensitive subject not easily explained to those not inclined to believe, and it is quite advanced doctrine you don't hear every Sunday morning.  And it is true..I'll prove it some day.

I'll put it this way...  The Mormon explanation of the afterlife makes a lot more sense than the normal Christian one, but the ritualism and polygamy stuff kind of ruins it.

I guess what I'm trying to say is....   Why can't Mormonism just focus on a more logical explanation of the afterlife without focusing so much on tradition?   Polygamy and the previous prejudice toward blacks has left the Mormon church for the most part, so why can't you guys also promote things like gender equality?  I hope you don't take offense to any of this stuff, but I can't help but bring it up....

No, the Mormon version of the afterlife makes no more sense than any other fairytale.  Do some more research, then get back to me on that.  Oh, and by the way, I was baptized into the Normon...er Mormon...church and quickly left.  Sorry Ironcheff, but mormonism is the very definition of what religion should not be.  The self righteous, sanctimonious asshats that lead your religion can only lead you to ruin if you believe what they teach.

Sorry brother, but there, done that, before you.

sergeriver wrote:

Religious: ...to accept God doesn't exist?

I cannot think of any earthly reason why I would do so.

IRONCHEF wrote:

If God intervened in all things bad, maybe death so we'd all stay around forever, happy, in our little emo world..then what is the point?  And sometimes God does intervene..based on the faith of others, a unique plan that requires longevity for someone, something well beyond the wisdom you and I have.

Good points, Ironchef.  God is sovereign and we as created beings demanding that God the Creator use His power to fix all our problems would put us in an incredibly arrogant position.

Last edited by Stingray24 (2008-04-04 22:33:21)

Agent_Dung_Bomb wrote:

No, the Mormon version of the afterlife makes no more sense than any other fairytale.  Do some more research, then get back to me on that.  Oh, and by the way, I was baptized into the Normon...er Mormon...church and quickly left.  Sorry Ironcheff, but mormonism is the very definition of what religion should not be.  The self righteous, sanctimonious asshats that lead your religion can only lead you to ruin if you believe what they teach.

Sorry brother, but there, done that, before you.

Well, I wasn't implying that I'd want to convert, but I've known a Mormon (who later became an atheist) that explained their version of the afterlife to me, and I still have to say that it made more sense than the "everyone who doesn't believe in Christ is going to hell" story.

I can't say I'm a fan of the magical underpants thing though (the garments thing).  lol

Turquoise wrote:

I'll put it this way...  The Mormon explanation of the afterlife makes a lot more sense than the normal Christian one, but the ritualism and polygamy stuff kind of ruins it.

I guess what I'm trying to say is....   Why can't Mormonism just focus on a more logical explanation of the afterlife without focusing so much on tradition?   Polygamy and the previous prejudice toward blacks has left the Mormon church for the most part, so why can't you guys also promote things like gender equality?  I hope you don't take offense to any of this stuff, but I can't help but bring it up....

Ritualism and polygamy:  If you're asking about what you would describe in the temple ordinances as rituals, I'll simply state that they are what they are...a vicarious, graduating path of man's (and woman's) journey through the entire plan of salvation as we call it.  It is filled with rich symbolism, spoken and gestured ordinances, the making of covenants, and for the experience of communing directly with God.  The first time you go through the temple you do so for yourself.  THereafter, you go on behalf of (vicariously) those who have already passed and haven't had their ordinances done for them.  That's it.  I won't apologize if that seems "ritualistic."  It's actually quite boring unless you're going through humbly, with a clear heart and mind, and clean spirit willing to be taught from on high.  The revelatory experiences in the Temple are second to none.  It prepares you for whatever the world can throw at you.  It's the very core of what makes Mormon's so happy.

Some biblical patriarchs, most notably Abraham, were commanded to have additional wives.  Being that the Mormons believe what is promised in Acts, that "all things will be restored," it makes sense that "plural marriage" was restored since it was an ordinance once commanded of God's people.  It was met with resistence by Joseph Smith until about a decade later he was threatened with destruction if he did not comply.  As the church moved from Nauvoo to Utah Territory, some leaders were tasked with taking wives.  These men were able to (they could provide seperate homes, feed, clothe, and lead with righteousness) because they were spiritually prepared.  Not everyone was commanded to do so.  Usually the "wife" of the man aided in the selection process.  Often it was widows who were married to a man in order to provide for them.  Polygamy as practiced by the early Mormons was NOT for the purposes pretty much every sicko things of it as today...it's not a sex orgy and the women are NOT servants.  TO better imagine it, imagine yourself with 4 copies of your wife, 4 sets of kids, 4 mortgages to pay, 4x the food, clothing, etc..  Exactly...it's no picnic which is why it wasn't something men sought after.  Utah was applying for statehood shortly after it was repealed by the Lord as having been "fulfilled."  No laws were broken because "bigamy" was not introduced by the US Government until afterwards..and Utah Territory wasn't even a state yet so it didn't matter anyway.  Mormons do hold the laws of the land in high regard and commandment to follow.

ANyway, this is all information many apologists will yield if you search (jeff lindsay is a good one).


**EDIT!!**
Sorry, I meant to address the gender inequality and black prejudice comments too.

TO be clear, this church does not bend and run with the flow of other churches who try to appear more mainstream, more in-tuned with the world.  That would denote that it is a church of man, not something divinely instituted.  We actually claim to be the restored church, in it's fullness, as a restoration of the ancient church the Savior established himself.  We don't pick and chose if men and women get to hold priesthood..which is the thing I"m guessing you're referring to (some feminists were excommunicated, at their wish, after they petitioned and publicly argued against the church to be able to hold the priesthood..like the other churches do).  And for what it's worth, women have a much greater role in our church than holding priesthood.  Further, what is the big deal about holding priesthood?  It's not like you are suddenly powerful and great.  The priesthood is on the earth so it can be used to build the kingdom, to glorify god..not the holder who uses it.  But that's another discussion.

As far as the blacks holding priesthood before 1978, that was/is an ancient punishment due to the sin Ham committed...where he and his seed were not to inherit the rights of the priesthood.  As for the church being prejudiced?  I'd have you reserch our early years, when the church was run out of town from NY, to OH, to MO, to IL, and finally to UT.  THey were persecuted and hated because the represented a voting block that was opposed to slavery (when everyone else wasn't), they built beautiful towns out of nothing, were virtuous, didn't drink, and threatened the lifestyle of the scumbags in office.  Just like in Kosovo, the Mormons were given an extermination order from Missouri by Gov. Boggs...why?  They voted against slavery among other things. 

THere's zero prejudice against blacks in this church.  All children of God are equal, are entitled to the same benefits and blessings of heaven as anyone is and was.  Priesthood is not ours to give...  And when it was revealed (probably because it was finally safe or because mankind was finally getting a grip on racial equality), black mormons all over the world were immediately ordained, humbly exercised their priesthood to bless their families, their local congregations where they served, etc.  THe non-black members didn't suddenly start being nice to them.  Nothing changed because they always treated blacks as equals, etc.

Anyway, again, it's not some church were a bunch of guys sit around and decide on policies like pretty much any other church does.  I've been involved in enough to know that it's not directed by man.  Another big factor, if you want to reason things out with logic, is that nobody is PAID to do what they do.  NOne of the leaders are paid from the president down to the local level leaders.  THere is nothing worldly to gain from being Mormon, no "power," no riches, no great influence...rather, we're ostracized, expelled, laughed at (underwear), and ridiculed..but when you start talking about mormons you know, it's always "hey, they're great neighbors to have" or "they really take care of their families."

Ok, enough mormon hijacking.  Maybe it's time to have a "Ask a Mormon" thread! lol

Last edited by IRONCHEF (2008-04-05 16:00:40)